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[LegoLord]

Ooh...another idea would be to make a [Stonecarn] tag to represent lithovore races.

If that were implemented I'd give it to trolls and change their racegloss to some type of stone.
You could go a step further and give them [SLOWLEARNER].
Terry Pratchett is awesome.

[Draco18s]

If we want realism, we're going to need some sweet mine carts that takes mined rock somewhere.

All games need to have a sufficient level of unrealism.  It's what lets a 20th level D&D character move faster than the speed of light.  Yes, it's not real, but no one wants the rules changed because it's too fucking awesome.

If we add "rock realism" are you going to support the removal of the water-wheel-and-pump-perpetual-motion-machine?

Ooh...another idea would be to make a [Stonecarn] tag to represent lithovore races.

If that were implemented I'd give it to trolls and change their racegloss to some type of stone.
You could go a step further and give them [SLOWLEARNER].
Terry Pratchett is awesome.

Except Mr. Shine.  Him diamond.

[Granite26]

If we want realism, we're going to need some sweet mine carts that takes mined rock somewhere.

All games need to have a sufficient level of unrealism.  It's what lets a 20th level D&D character move faster than the speed of light.  Yes, it's not real, but no one wants the rules changed because it's too fucking awesome.

If we add "rock realism" are you going to support the removal of the water-wheel-and-pump-perpetual-motion-machine?

erm, yes?

also, it's not awesome, it's an unfortunate consequense of a broken rules set.

[G-Flex]

Er, of course it's realistic in that sense, but it's consistent with the rest of the game.

If an unskilled miner can leave behind nothing, a skilled miner should be able to do the same.

Also, it shouldn't take more time. The "stone" left behind is WORKABLE stone. It should actually be quicker for a skilled dwarf to not care and just plow through the rock, not leaving behind anything of real value.

[GlyphGryph]

Err, the realism people annoy me a bit on situations like this, where the mechanic they are against is already an actual part of the game.

But yeah, mining preferences would be awesome. Probably been mentioned before, but things like:

Produce stone (y/n)
Mine economic stone (y/n) (As set in economic stone menu - stone thats been declared uneconomic is mined regardless)
Mine gems (y/n)
etc. etc.
It seems pretty straightforward to set up, anyway.

[korora]

There's a very good reason that low-skilled miners sometimes produce no stone.

1. It is desirable to have low-skilled miners yield less usable stone than high-skilled miners.

2. A miner can produce 0 or 1 stones per tile mined.

3. In order to achieve (1) within the constraints of (2), we have to settle for low-skilled dwarves producing less stone on average, meaning sometimes they will produce a stone and sometimes they won't.

It's not that they're sometimes vaporizing a tile of stone.  It's that they only get, say, half as much product per tile as a legend does.  Toady has mercifully chosen (so far) to ignore the rubble and rock dust that should be showing up when unskilled miners do their stuff.

[Granite26]

There's a very good reason that low-skilled miners sometimes produce no stone.

1. It is desirable to have low-skilled miners yield less usable stone than high-skilled miners.

2. A miner can produce 0 or 1 stones per tile mined.

3. In order to achieve (1) within the constraints of (2), we have to settle for low-skilled dwarves producing less stone on average, meaning sometimes they will produce a stone and sometimes they won't.

It's not that they're sometimes vaporizing a tile of stone.  It's that they only get, say, half as much product per tile as a legend does.  Toady has mercifully chosen (so far) to ignore the rubble and rock dust that should be showing up when unskilled miners do their stuff.

or to rephrase, it is objectionable to institutionalize a nabstraction by placing features to make the unintended consequence the desired outcome.

[Mikademus]

Realism doesn't seem to be the issue here. As it happens now, low skilled miners can sometimes make a square of rock turn into nothing. At all other times the square of rock is somehow COMPRESSED. If we want realism, we're going to need some sweet mine carts that takes mined rock somewhere.

Realism is a word flung with bigotry and unsystematically by debaters here as suits their current point. If someone doesn't like a suggestion then it is often "unrealistic" (== bad) and then the opposing party has to reply "gameplay" etc etc.

First, DF isn't "realistic" - we have fantastical dwarves, giants and dragons, which aren't usually observed IRL. Now, when people speak about "realistic" they probably rather mean "believable", and there are large chasms in the patchwork of DF believability. Mining is one of them where novice excavators produce less stone than expert.

Rather, the real point is that stones from mining is perhaps the most common suggestion/problem brought up in this forum. This means that regardless of the realism/believability faction's preferences, it is a real, acute and perhaps the biggest game play issue with DF. Usually, it is a good idea to address the most reported problems, and in this case, if reports/suggestions is a metric for this, greater "realism" is NOT what is desirable by the majority.

[G-Flex]

First, DF isn't "realistic" - we have fantastical dwarves, giants and dragons, which aren't usually observed IRL. Now, when people speak about "realistic" they probably rather mean "believable", and there are large chasms in the patchwork of DF believability. Mining is one of them where novice excavators produce less stone than expert.

That is completely irrelevant and I think you know it.

There's a difference between the setting diverging from the real world (and sometimes having different rules, such as capacity for magic), and the setting not following its own rules. After all, I would assume the DF universe doesn't actually have rock magically disappearing when you  mine it out.

In my opinion, mined-out tunnels not being cluttered with pebbles is just an abstraction. The useless stuff (pulverized rock) is certainly "there", but the game has no real decent reason to represent it, and only represents workable rock left over.

[Mikademus]

First, DF isn't "realistic" - we have fantastical dwarves, giants and dragons, which aren't usually observed IRL. Now, when people speak about "realistic" they probably rather mean "believable", and there are large chasms in the patchwork of DF believability. Mining is one of them where novice excavators produce less stone than expert.

That is completely irrelevant and I think you know it.

There's a difference between the setting diverging from the real world (and sometimes having different rules, such as capacity for magic), and the setting not following its own rules. After all, I would assume the DF universe doesn't actually have rock magically disappearing when you  mine it out.

In my opinion, mined-out tunnels not being cluttered with pebbles is just an abstraction. The useless stuff (pulverized rock) is certainly "there", but the game has no real decent reason to represent it, and only represents workable rock left over.

Don't mean to be confrontational old chap, but I think you utterly missed my point.

[G-Flex]

I think I know what you mean now, but if so, I disagree. I think expert miners SHOULD produce less stone, and that it is, in fact, believable that they do so, since the stone represented is simply whatever can actually be used properly and hasn't been converted into tiny rubble.

[Warlord255]

If you must insist on the realism of non-produced-stone mined tiles having rubble, there's always the fact that rough stone floor is of little or no architectural value.

[Foa]

If we want realism, we're going to need some sweet mine carts that takes mined rock somewhere.

All games need to have a sufficient level of unrealism.  It's what lets a 20th level D&D character move faster than the speed of light.  Yes, it's not real, but no one wants the rules changed because it's too fucking awesome.

If we add "rock realism" are you going to support the removal of the water-wheel-and-pump-perpetual-motion-machine?

erm, yes?

also, it's not awesome, it's an unfortunate consequense of a broken rules set.

I found a way to bypass this, pumps, pump make uber amounts of flow, and bam, you get a perpetual plant.

Realism chops your chops.
So Urist's Moving Castle is possible, and you need be an retard not know that if you know how to make sauna, you're peoples should expect steam power, but not really developed.

[Rakeela]

I love the perpetual motion machines.  I chalk it up to dwarven magic.  Building a human town or elven retreat, on the other hand...  it wouldn't make much sense there.

The thing with expert miners versus novice miners is the difference between cutting out large chunks of usable rock in a relatively easy to transport form (the expert) versus burrowing out a lot of crushed stone and random detritus, some of which is coincidentally in usable form (the novice).

The rubble, dirt, and junk is abstracted away.  I support this idea that an expert should be able to burrow faster if they don't care about the usability of what they're cutting out.  If that abstraction ever goes away, it will make less sense.  You'll prefer the less detritus created by the expert.  Sure, it's still a lot of stone, but it's easier to transport than three times as much rubble and gravel.

Removing the abstraction of dirt and gravel would give more work to cleaners, but making rubble need to be hauled out...  That needs to wait until we have better hauling, definitely.

[korora]

That's the point... it's an abstraction which shouldn't be abused by extrapolation for convenience's sake.