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Author Topic: Do undead Have Souls?  (Read 6033 times)

Frelock

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Re: Do undead Have Souls?
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2008, 03:12:28 am »

This is certainly an interesting topic, so I guess I'll share my own personal philosophy on "souls."

A most basic definition of a soul is "something which can perceive, but cannot be perceived."  A soul sees, hears, touches, tastes, and smells the world through the various faculties of the body, but cannot be seen, heard, and so forth.  This, however, is a rather impractical definition of souls when dealing with them as a whole.  Therefore, I split up a soul into three separate categories: mind, spirit and "soul" (note here that when I refer to soul, I am referring to the greater whole, and when I say "soul," I mean the specific part).  All these parts interact with one another and with the body, and sometimes they overlap.

We'll start with the hardest and work our way to the easiest.  The "soul" is the most enigmatic subsection of the soul.  It corresponds mostly to the will of the being from which it comes.  It decides what the goal in life of the being in question is.  Whether simply survival or perhaps something greater, the soul is what guides us.  It also holds the basic moral structure, and therefore the ideas of good and evil.  However, an amoral person is not neccessarially lacking a "soul," it's just that either the "soul" is not in control, or the will part of the "soul" is completely overpowering its moralistic part.  This is the highest form of the soul, and is somewhat similar to Freud's superego.

From there, we go to the spirit.  The spirit consists mostly of the emotions of the person.  Fears, hopes, wants, anger, happiness, contentedness, all these are aspects of the spirit.  The spirit is often the driving force behind most of our primal instincts, such as the flight or fight decision.  Many times, the "soul" will determine what we do, but it is the spirit which determines how we do it.  For example, a soul might demand revenge, but a person with a "hot" spirit would go out on a murderous rampage, while a "cold" spirit would sit and calculate, waiting for the right moment to strike.  The spirit also corresponds to Freud's id.

The mind is the easiest portion of the soul to understand.  It is the part that thinks, believes, doubts, remembers, wonders, and other related functions.  When I say "Cogito ergo sum" (I think, therefore I am), I have confirmed the existence of my mind.  It is, in essence, Descartes' "thinking thing."  The mind is also what chooses what to do, in a more local sense.  The "soul" guides the person on what general action to take, the spirit tells it in what way to perform this action, but the mind is what actually goes about making the exact plan.  The mind also has the power to override both the "soul" and the spirit, making it closely relate to Freud's ego.

As to how all this relates to undead and whether they have souls, I would say that it is a necessity for undead to have at least some form of a "soul" guiding and directing them.  Even if it's just an insatiable appetite for brains, there's still a will guiding the body on what to do.  It is possible for a necromancer to make bodies dance using only puppet strings, but it seems like it would be more efficient to make an artificial "soul" which guides the undead in the basic task which the necromancer would like to perform.

They also have to have some semblance of minds, due to the fact that they can distinguish between one thing and another, they know how to move their bodies, and they can make decisions as to which rout to take to the intended target.  However, their minds appear very limited and basic, and not capable of "higher" thought.

The only thing which undead might not have would be spirits.  Emotions and zombies don't seem to go well together in my opinion.  Emotions and ghosts, on the other hand, do.  A ghost would probably be missing more of the mind aspect, with actual enhancement of the spirit.  Other undead, like vampires, have complete souls, they just are fundamentally different from ours, mainly in the "soul" area (as their will and moral code are drastically changed).

How this could be incorporated into the game....not sure.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 03:15:18 am by Frelock »
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chaoticag

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Re: Do undead Have Souls?
« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2008, 08:32:46 am »

I say the soul is in each and every creature, gets damaged during hard times and recovering in good.

The undead should carry around shatered souls, as what drove the to this was probably insanity, and they desire the destruction of all things living.
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Tormy

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Re: Do undead Have Souls?
« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2008, 09:16:23 am »

I have to say, I like what Fieari has written up.  I think it could work really well in the DF context.  While I still disagree with Tormy and Tenebrais on if animals have souls, what Fieari has typed up certainly acts as a good series of guidelines for the various types of undead, and what you can, and can't be.

Yep, like I've said, Fieari's "system" could work very well, if it would be implemented properly. It would offer great diversity, and that is good.  :)
I was totally against the idea of undeads having soul [see my earlier replies], but I must realize that the game would be even much better with detailed mini systems like this.  :)
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Skyrage

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Re: Do undead Have Souls?
« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2008, 10:09:09 am »

My take:

Skeletons - no soul whatsoever. They're just a bunch of bones with some form of magic on them which gives them the basic of basic movement and perception. Raised by a means of magic which takes advantage of the fact that the bones come from a former living being.

Zombies - pretty much the same deal only that a zombie is well...a skeleton with meat in it and thus a bit tougher.

Vampires - things get a bit different. Vampires are a form of undead so technically I'd say that they're also soulless, however despite being intelligent and aware beings and most likely still containing memories of their former selves, it's only a mere imprint. Whether we talk about "classical" vampires or the more mindless/instinct driven a.k.a "modern" vampires, fact remains that they're cold beings with no real emotion. Also, the ability to turn other living beings into vampires is a bit of a topic - whether it is through some magical/alchemical (mixing blood + a bit of magic) or a more scientific (just mixing blood/infecting) method; at least one thing still remains true - the subject will end up turning dead -> undead and thus losing his soul.

Ghosts - here we have a soul. Pretty much a soul without a body, somehow still bound to the living world.

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Fieari

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Re: Do undead Have Souls?
« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2008, 11:39:00 am »

So, when you say you think zombies/skeletons shouldn't have souls, do you mean that, code-wise, they shouldn't be self-actuated, but instead act like RC toys controlled by another entity?  I can see some zombies being like that, but the zombies currently in game are self-willed, if only in terms of "shamble now" and "devour dwarven flesh".
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Neonivek

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Re: Do undead Have Souls?
« Reply #65 on: October 19, 2008, 11:40:29 am »

Even then couldn't a wizard adding in programming into a Skeleton be an artificial soul?

I mostly say this because it gives an outline on how Golems and other constructed creatures, or even powerful artifacts, could be done within the confines of the game. Better artificial souls the better creature your going to get.

It would be cool if powerful souls, such as that of demons, could exert force on the body they inhabit so that people who absorbed a demon's soul could end up growing horns or something.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 11:42:18 am by Neonivek »
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Fieari

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Re: Do undead Have Souls?
« Reply #66 on: October 19, 2008, 11:41:35 am »

Exactly my thought.  Artificial souls could be very interesting as well.
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Philosophical Gamer

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Re: Do undead Have Souls?
« Reply #67 on: October 19, 2008, 04:09:45 pm »

I always thought of undead as pretty much bodies that are animated by a spell or taken over by mind power or something like that, so going by the whole soul/spirit/body thing, pretty much they're only one part of it, an old rotting body.

So the dude whose body it was is up somewhere in the afterlife watching some necromancer use his body to go around killing people and eating their brains, pretty much.  Cool.
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Tormy

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Re: Do undead Have Souls?
« Reply #68 on: October 19, 2008, 04:12:56 pm »

I always thought of undead as pretty much bodies that are animated by a spell or taken over by mind power or something like that, so going by the whole soul/spirit/body thing, pretty much they're only one part of it, an old rotting body.

So the dude whose body it was is up somewhere in the afterlife watching some necromancer use his body to go around killing people and eating their brains, pretty much.  Cool.

This is why need a detailed and interesting system, what Fieari has suggested for example. That way we can have soulless undeads and undeads who have soul.
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Philosophical Gamer

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Re: Do undead Have Souls?
« Reply #69 on: October 19, 2008, 04:22:48 pm »

mmm, good idea.  I'm sure if ghosts are real, many of them don't want to be sitting in the same house all the time, yet they do.  Sort of a "stuck souls" scenario.
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YojimboUsaka

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Re: Do undead Have Souls?
« Reply #70 on: October 19, 2008, 04:24:35 pm »

The system could work even for the 'shambling' undead as well... Just that the only part of the 'soul' left is the one for hunger.  You could also replace the 'hunger' soul part with the 'work' soul part.  Now you have an undead slave who wants to wash your dishes.

This could also be interesting use for the artifact arc as well.   Artifacts could have souls, or parts, and that is what gives them their great power.  Could give us some really interesting outcomes as well. 

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Kagus

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Re: Do undead Have Souls?
« Reply #71 on: October 19, 2008, 04:32:37 pm »

All this undead stuff is all well and fine, but what about the origin of demons?  I have often thought that a fitting idea would be that they are created by the minds of humans.  When a person feels a negative emotion (hate, rage, fear, greed, sorrow), that emotion manifests itself as a being in an alternate (but closely linked) plane.  The type of emotion determines its aspects, while the strength of the emotion determines its power.

There are a near-infinite number of such emotions, but most of them are only trivial in strength.  It takes special circumstances (and, sometimes, a special mind) to give form to the strongest of such emotions. 


Sorry for the tangent, I just thought it was kinda interesting.

Tormy

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Re: Do undead Have Souls?
« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2008, 04:45:03 pm »

Demons?..my personal opinion is, that the demonic creatures are supernatural and originated from other planes of existence. Demons are definitely not undead creatures in my book at least.  :)
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Neonivek

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Re: Do undead Have Souls?
« Reply #73 on: October 19, 2008, 05:44:22 pm »

In terms of Dwarf Fortress they are still somewhat of a mystery and probably will never be revealed exactly what they are other then malicious beings that the gods themselves have locked away.
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Idiom

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Re: Do undead Have Souls?
« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2008, 06:44:12 pm »

I've always thought of 'the living dead' as alive without a soul.
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