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Author Topic: The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread  (Read 5131 times)

StrayCat

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The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
« on: October 09, 2008, 09:47:31 pm »

I've looked through pages and pages of things on flamethrowers, gunpowder, torches, petroleum, magma, lava, dwarven napalm (Yes, napalm. Hats off to the man after my own heart, John Hopoate, who I've read personally or is referenced in a quarter the violent and/or flame-related suggestions I've read), and general things that go "Fwoosh" and "BOOM". Fire being a serious danger in any fortress, I'm also including the Prevention category in this thread so there's a gentle reminder that fire needs to be kept track of  as well. Inspired by the Underground Diversity thread, I have created a stockpile thread where you can put all the fire-and-explosion-and-extinguishing related suggestions as there's rather a lot of them, so it can be kept better track of. Let me start with what I've seen, and what I personally would like to include.

General Guideline/Help for thinking out a suggestion:
StartItems Processing Users Purpose

Prevention (The only thing that I think isn't bloat and should be implemented as soon as Toady could, really):

Game Mechanics Change- Dwarves set to hauling items, when picking up flaming items, will fetch a bucket and fill it with water before reaching the burning item. When the item is reached, it shall put out, THEN grasped and stored.

Water Flask- Can be crafted by the clothier out of cloth materials, then filled by anyone. It's a flask filled with water, people. Can be carried by anyone, and extinguishes one tile of flame.

Bucket of soil: For those places without water available or not yet reached on the map, it's a bucket of soil! Bucket+selected wall of soil. Requires loss of one wall, generates three buckets. Each bucket can be dumped on separate tiles or dumped on the same tile to a depth of 7- except the maximum depth from destroying one wall will be three buckets worth. Will slow the progress of fire going over that location, will stop if placed directly -on- a location on fire, and at a depth of five the fire cannot pass through the mound of dirt.

Game Mechanics Change - Enable the ability to Forbid Burning Items. If an item catches fire en-route, the dwarf cancels the retrieve.

Flame Retardation Treatment - Dwarf clothing and items can be treated by an alchemist to be flame-retardant. 1 soil, 1 water, 3 giant cave spider silk,  1 tar (An extract from coal, peat, wood, and organic materials. The materials are lost to make the tar). Mix'em all up and the chance of catching on fire decreases drastically. Reapplications do not stack.

Water Cannon- TAKING IDEAS FOR I AM STUMPED IN A GENERAL SENSE FOR WHAT WOULD FIT.

Trap:

Ignition trap - Walk on the pressure plate hooked up to the trap or if the lever connected to the trap is pulled, and whoomp. Goblin barbecue. Requires Mechanism and Alchemists Fire Solution.

Explosive trap - Something steps on the pressure plate or someone pulls the lever, and the barrel of gunpowder (Barrel of gunpowder, mechanism, metal bar -for shrapnel-, and alchemists fire solution) pops with a minimum area of effect of nine tiles (one in every direction and the center). Certain chance of things on fire, large chance of unidentifiable remains and enough bloodstains to shock the inhabitants of boatmurdered, fair chance of mining on the x and y axis, small chance of mining on the z axis (down AND up, remember). Higher quality trap means -much- larger area of effect, which is not known until detonation. Things lit on fire burn until out of fuel, i.e. there's nothing left to burn. Can make a domino effect of detonating every barrel nearby, and that one detonating another, and that one detonating another and that one detonating another, which detonates four others all going down different paths, and it spirals throughout your base, above and under ground, collapsing the entire fortress in a glorious, shining example of dwarven destructive engineering, nothing untouched from the lowest z-level to the animals on the ceiling of the top z-level, nothing left but a smell of dust and corpses in the air, and the memory that once, something stood here, but is naught for rubble, bone, and ash now... What? Oh, sorry. Got sidetracked there.

Military:
Alternate Catapult Ammo (Gunpowder Barrels) - Instead of rocks, a catapult can toss barrels of gunpowder. Minimum Area of Effect is nine squares. The barrel of gunpowder -can- mine out walls, ceilings, and floors on an unknown chance and power of the blast. Maximum explosion size is ten squares. In all directions, of course. Throwing range is thirty tiles, maximum.

HammerGrenades - 1 metal case, 1 gunpowder, the hammer skill, and one beardy (dwarven substitute for ballsy) soldier. Use it and lose it. Don't just carry one for loads of fun. And by "loads of fun" I mean "every time your dwarf blows one of those things up, they could set off every grenade in their inventory." The dwarf using that will be at a minimum, stunned. Only for one step/turn/round, however. That's superdwarvenly tough for you. Someone who's already an injured dwarf? They're shredded, along with what they hit. does piercing damage. Dwarves who have their inventory blow up (along with themselves) are the only ones affected- they shield everything else from the blast. No chance of channeling or mining (taking out floors or ceilings or walls) as the weapons is shrapnel based. If a dwarf hits with this, any standard creature is taken down immediately and permanently. Semi-Megabeasts and megabeasts won't necessarily. High percentage of the HammerDwarf in question getting injured. Hits up to two squares in every direction except the ones directly behind the dwarf and behind the monster hit. A solid weapon for throwing, but since it isn't in fortress mode, and dwarves need everything they use to be awesome, they use the Hammer skill instead. The center of the blast will be the tile the attacked creature is on.

Thrown Grenades- Uses the Throw Skill. Does piercing damage, less damage than the HammerGrenade, but a wider area of effect, three to four tiles in all directions getting a bit of shrapnel. 1 metal case, 1 gunpowder.
 
Fire Bolts- Ayup, and long in coming it has indeed been. Takes one Oil and a torch. Doesn't set the dwarf on fire. Gives burn damage and may light enemies on fire.

Exploding bolts- hollow bolts with gunpowder. Requires hollow bolt (to be made at your local forge) and one gunpowder. Shrapnel damage inside the enemy, looots of potential piercing damage. Will not light them on fire.

Dwarf-portable flamethrowers - Requires 1 torch, 1 barrel, minimum. Uses oil for ammunition. Each burst uses one oil. Uses the marksman skill. They can target the floor and walls if markers are laid down. They can fire down a Z-level. Maximum range is 10 tiles, minimum is 3. Fires a stream of flame for three actions. When firing the flamedwarves cannot move. The flamedwarves cannot move while reloading. There is a possibility of the torch going out, and having to be relit. This is more difficult than expected during combat. The weapon may jam, and is now useless. The weapon may explode, and the firedwarf will now be useless, unless superdwarvenly tough. Then it's merely covered in red and yellow wounds and on fire.

Siege engine flamethrowers: Requires one torch (pilot light), a bin (holding the oil), screw pump (pushing the oil through), and 25 units of oil. Reloading takes up to five minutes, using twenty five ammo takes twenty five seconds. Reloading can go down to thirty seconds if there's a stockpile in an adjacent square.

Torches- 1 wood log, 1 imp fat, and 1 oil, crafted by the alchemist. Hammer skill weapon that does fire damage, lights the target on fire for 5 actions/rounds/steps per hit and burns for a bit after death. Duration stacks. Don't forget to light the torch first (assumedly the dwarves strike it against their beards. That or off a wall, or they carry matches. Yes they are around, the Chinese made'em in 500-something-AD if I recall correctly). Can light wood structures on fire.

Excavation:

Mining charges- And at further progression into this, Shaped Charges will be enabled for higher level crafters of the item. Comes with a T-plunger, because they are awesome. The gunpowder barrel (mining charge basic) and T-plunger will require 4 logs, 1 gunpowder, and 1 mechanism. One log and the mechanism will make the plunger, placeable in any part of the base. For all intents and purposes, it is a lever. You can hook up the T-Plunger to real levers. You can hook up multiple T-plungers to real levers.The explosive is placed on a tile, and detonated. If it is a shaped charge, you can choose where it digs (to it's limited capabilities) on all three axes. A shaped charge will take 16 logs, 5 gunpowder, and 1 mechanism.

Vehicles/Carriers:

POSSIBLY MAYBE PERHAPS COMING SOON THINKING ABOUT IT READING OTHER THREAD TO MAKE WITH THE UNDERSTANDINGS


Miscellaneous:

Game Mechanics - Anyone attacked (or counterattacked) whilst carrying a barrel of explosives in their inventory will cause the barrel to explode. You can order someone to place a barrel, then draft them so they stop, and the barrel will stay in their inventory. They will likely die. So will anything within at minimum three squares in all directions (5x5). This will not channel or mine.

Alchemists Fire Solution- In all honesty, I have no clear idea what'll make this just yet, but I'm relatively sure it'll involve imp fat, handled with

Fire tongs- for picking up imp fat. Craftable from a bar of metal or cuttable at your masons.

Gunpowder- Can be created by the alchemists through:

Saltpeter (the stone wall sedimentary rock, or an alchemist going up to an animal with a bucket, bringing the bucket back to base, storing it, being labeled -fermenting saltpeter- until it is labeled -saltpeter- after a week of fermenting. Will generate miasma for the middle of the fermenting period, three days).
Charcoal
Brimstone (Also Known as Sulfur- The More You Know!)

Gunpowder can be requested from traders. Prepare for paying through your hairy dwarven nostrils unless you bring your liason attendant, Mr. Axe Of Head Cleaving.

Oil- something else done by the Chinese first, burning crude is possible according to This right here. Found at lower levels of some maps. Can be requested for traders. Prepare to pay through the nose (or slaughter them all to get it for it.


-----

I'll update anything not too utterly absurd a suggestion into the top of this, making new categories if it doesn't fit. Keep in mind for those wondering how absurd I'm willing to accept, I just suggested dwarves go run up and hit things with percussion detonated explosives.

So, who else wants to train their alchemist up just so their miners can plant a shaped charge outside the nobles bedroom door which just happened to lock itself last night while he was sleeping there?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 10:36:44 pm by StrayCat »
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inaluct

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Re: The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2008, 11:48:43 pm »

I wholeheartedly support this madness.
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Pilsu

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Re: The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2008, 12:11:37 am »

Getting a dash too advanced methinks. Admittedly breaching rivers and magma pipes with small bombs would be nice

Catapult rocks should create cave-in dust by default. Fire extract would just make it more damaging. Requiring fire bombs for them to be of any use would suck
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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2008, 12:34:19 am »

As much as I love pyrotechnics and fire as the next guy does (see avatar)...

I do believe we need a method of putting out fires other than the current "letting it smother/forbid everything" before we move onto more massive flames and explosions in DF.

Tack

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Re: The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2008, 01:23:24 am »

Weeell. I like the bucket of water thing. although having an option in the
  • menu like, "auto-forbid burning items" would be pretty helpful also.


I just realised that i played for the last year on one of the first updated dwarf fortresses. I only just got the latest, so i don't know if any of this is there already.

and then you could expand on Cat's to have that option extend to "auto-extinguish burning items".

However, flamethrowers seem too user dangerous. And you could have a hammerdwarf pick up a grenade and spar with it. ;O.

And would flamesdwarves destroy wooden archery targets?
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StrayCat

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Re: The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2008, 06:27:32 pm »

Solution: Lock the room you're storing the grenades in when the dwarves aren't under siege. Train up the skill with hammers.... What, I'm not trying to weed out the stupid recruits, nosireebob, I just leave it up to, to, to, aha, to the fortress manager to take better care of his troops! Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

Flamesdwarves would destroy archery targets eventually, but only by fire. And I -really- reccomend that you make a second range-training room if you're going to bother wasting the oil and endangering lives by grinding the flamethrowers instead of crossbows. Uh, some dwarves might go in to clean up the ash of one training dwarf, and there -is- a little overspill and explosion chance when using a flamethrower. Best to grind other skills, then roll out the big guns for the parties. And crowd control, if your place descends into riots of tantrums. Hey, it'd make one helluva story, wouldn't it?I'll include Game Mechanic: Auto Forbid Burning Items under Prevention. Always going the long way to get to the same place, me. S'my most dwarven quality, eh?


Edit for Pilsu: The chinese were doing stuff like that in 500CE (which is another way of saying Anno Domini, I believe), so it's before the right time frame of "Dark-Age to Middle-Age" in my mind. They should've already had this stuff. Heck, flamethrowers've been around at least since the greeks decided they didn't like other people in their waters. They made -napalm- that works on -water- Before Christ. That's pretty freakin' early. Torches, explosives, small (like grenades) and large (for entertainment, warfare, AND mining- some smart people, them ancient chinese). It's all been around. And the bloody fire extinguishing groups, early precursors to fire men, have been around since soddin' Egypt. The only reason the greeks didn't lug around those greek fire throwing siege engines on their ships was that they weren't dwarf enough to try it. Oh, and some weight problems, but dwarves can build it lighter and more dangerous. For everyone all around.

Yeah, I had researched this a lot. Wiki, lads. And don't think I'm talking just to you Pilsu, I'm talking to -everyone- because it seems like everyone and their mother suggests that this stuff isn't "in the same timeframe" as DF. A fantasy game. They won't let -guns- go, for cryin' out loud, and those've been around for ages. Too many people who're too uptight about weaponry. It's got drawbacks. It's fun to think up how you'll use them. And it's fun to watch. It's dwarven. Giving the dwarves surgical air strikes or a KillSat, thaaats gonna be hard to justify to me. Gunpowder? Greek fire? Please. Not a chance is that too advanced.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 06:41:33 pm by StrayCat »
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Pilsu

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Re: The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2008, 07:39:31 pm »

I simply think adding flamethrowers and grenades would severely tarnish the flavor of the game. It's not supposed to Warcraft Fortress now is it?
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StrayCat

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Re: The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2008, 09:44:07 pm »

Dunno. Haven't played. They -can- do it, and I think they -should- do it, because it allows even more choices for fighting styles. Just because it has goblins and dragons, does that make dwarf fortress The Hobbit? Just because DF has cannibalistic (and overall not nice when you mess with them) elves, does that make this game warhammer? Just because this game has elephants, does that make dwarf fortress the real world? And just because this game has a whole slew of matching creatures and races, does that make dwarf fortress D&D? It doesn't. Dwarf Fortress is a unique game created by The Toady one And Three-Toe, and adding these suggestions will not make their game any less unique (MORE for having more options), or make the story any less unique. The game is what you make of it, and that's what makes it so great. You never have to choose to use explosives or fire preventative items if you don't want to. Others do. I'm trying to help them, help myself, and have some fun imagining something that can fit. I haven't suggested a KillSat. I haven't suggested a tank. I haven't suggested a train, or a car, or a shopping mall, or anything that's outrageous. It's fun, people ask for them, it isn't utterly out of context, and the people who don't want to use them- don't have to. Simple as that.

Fire Retardant material and adding the game mechanic for forbidding all burning material coming up now
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LumenPlacidum

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Re: The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2008, 09:53:49 pm »

I would like it as a siege weapon.  Hell, just a siege weapon that fires highly pressurized sprays of liquid so you can have water cannons, magma flamers, or blood showers (blood as a fluid! goooo!)

Also, I like the idea of satchel charges used for remote tile removal.  Seems very dwarfy to me and would be very flexible in how it affects the game.
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StrayCat

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Re: The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2008, 10:08:52 pm »

Hm. Did you read the first post? For satchel charges, why don't you train up your alchemist to where he can make shaped charges, leave them in front of fortress entries, and when an enemy comes on by, just close/lock the door, and blow the charge? And we do have a siege flamethrower.

...

Water cannons. Huh. I don't know if water cannons've been a recent human invention, but the game says dwarves are ahead of the engineering world by that they have steel. I'll think about designs for a water cannon as a "Siege" device. Possible riot device? *Goes off muttering*
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dizzyelk

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Re: The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2008, 03:44:35 pm »

or they carry matches. Yes they are around, the Chinese made'em in 500-something-AD if I recall correctly).

According to wiki:
Quote
A predecessor of the match, small sticks of pinewood impregnated with sulfur, were invented in China in AD 577 by Northern Qi ... During the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms (AD 907–960), a book called the Records of the Unworldly and the Strange written by Chinese author Tao Gu in about 950 stated:

If there occurs an emergency at night it may take some time to make a light to light a lamp. But an ingenious man devised the system of impregnating little sticks of pinewood with sulphur and storing them ready for use. At the slightest touch of fire they burst into flame.

...the first modern, self-igniting match was invented in 1805 by K. Chancel, assistant to Professor Louis Jacques Thénard of Paris. The head of the match consisted of a mixture of potassium chlorate, sulfur, sugar, and rubber. They were ignited by dipping the tip of the match in a small asbestos bottle filled with sulfuric acid. This kind of match was quite expensive and its usage was dangerous ...

The first "friction match" was invented by English chemist John Walker in 1827.  Walker discovered a mixture of antimony sulfide or stibnite, potassium chlorate, gum, and starch could be ignited by striking against any rough surface. Walker called the matches congreves, but the process was patented by Samuel Jones and the matches were sold as lucifer matches. The early matches had a number of problems - the flame was unsteady and the initial reaction was disconcertingly violent ... Lucifers reportedly could ignite explosively, sometimes throwing sparks at a considerable distance

So, the matches that would fit into the timeframe usually wanted for suggestions wouldn't actually create fire, just make it easier to transfer it, and if we cheated and used the early "lucifer" style matches, they'd have to have a chance of spontaniously combusting. Maybe, the cance of combusting would go down as the quality goes up? Like a -pine match- would have a 10% chance of combusting every however many seconds, while a +pine match+ would only have a 8% chance.
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Virex

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Re: The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2008, 04:03:10 pm »

To me it looks like dwarves are roughly on par with either early Renaissance or late Roman engineering levels. Anyway, you'd at least expect Greek Fire-like substances to be a relatively common weapon, since the Greeks and Romans used burning petrol like substances during several sieges. The problem with real flamethrowers is the pump system. Pumps in those times weren't exactly air-tight, so flammable liquid would seep out. They were used though, especially by the Byzantian navy, but also on land by the Moors. Another, safer solution was to launch ceramic or glass containers containing oil and to use incendiary arrows to light the liquid, or to stick a fire starter to the barrel itself, like an ancient Molotov Cocktail. Slings were sometimes used to deliver the payload iirc, though Balistae and onagers were used more often. Several reports state the Byzantines using incendiary balistae on their ships. the big advantage of Greek fire over other incendiary substances is that you can douse it with watter.
Flame throwers would still be a possibility though.
Pitch was another common ingredient in early incendiary weapons. The Boetians were reported to use a kind of blowtorch that blew over a pitcher of boiling pitch, causing a giant flame forward which took the Athenian defenders completely by surprise at the battle of Dellium in 424 BC. The mongols also used pitch-filled containers which could be launched by Trebuchets and would set the area on fire upon landing. Similar devices containing a multitude of mixtures have been used trough the ages. Another weapon was wheels drenched in pitch and set aflame, which were then rolled towards the enemy lines to cause chaos and damage. This was similar to the use of Fire Ships, burning or explosive ships drifting towards the enemies ships with often devastating effects.
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Duke 2.0

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Re: The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2008, 04:10:29 pm »

 Or they could use flint and steel. Requires flint and steel.

 My thought on fire prevention/extinguishing: Flasks can remove fire from one tile. Buckets do the same thing, but create mist that either removes surrounding fire or weakens it. Dirt could be like sand, but would only remove one tile of fire.

 My thoughts on fire: Hell yes. If a fortress does not have plumes of smoke coming from every crack, somebody is doing something wrong.

 My thoughts on explosives: Well, it would be weak. A 4x4 area at max.Unless you use a lot of explosives or have shrapnel, there is going to be a small area. As far as digging goes, an explosion should be equal to a miner digging at a tile for one second(Eer, 50 frames? More? This would require some balancing). The quality of the explosive would equal the skill level of a miner for the same duration. So it would take several terrible bombs to take out a rock, while a good quality one could clear out large holes of soil.

 Handheld ones would be a better throwing weapon, perhaps at most an explosive effect of four or so tiles?

 I'm liking the idea of siege engines launching explosives, hopefully when they arcs. Thus a siege could be taken out by some catapults on a tower launching explosives onto them, kinda like artillery.
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MagicJuggler

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Re: The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2008, 04:15:03 pm »

Might I redirect you to an earlier thread regarding custom vehicles/exploding things in general:

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=25912.0

The same component-based siege engine design should also be applicable for creating specialized gunpowder siege devices. Rather than having a flamethrower per se, we should have oil as a liquid with the preference [flammable], and screw pumps to push it outward, and upon contact with a light source (e.g. a lever-ignited torch), it would explode into an amount of flame based on the volume of the oil, with reduced z-velocity to represent the gaseous state.

For assorted ammunition types for the catapult, this should be easy to do. Each time you say "ready catapult", you say "select type of ammo" (allowing you to launch stuff such as dead cattle, or Goblin prisoners), and you then have the option to "unload ammo" based on if you need to change ammo-type.

The idea of shaped charges/fire-bombs/bombs in general could be consolidated IMO. You have an object called "Bomb" and you can select the, payload (type of required material; this would allow for some exotic explosive types like goblin-flesh bombs), power-level (determines the amount of material required, and whether the explosion is radial, linear, or conical), and detonation method (pressure-plate, lever or fuse).

For vehicles or other objects not bolted on the ground, Newton's third law should allow for equal and opposite reactions when explosives are in regard. So being at ground zero of a bomb would throw you backwards a few bits, while a directional bomb facing outwards of a wheeled vehicle should provide some initial thrust.

EDIT: Explosions should naturally be capable of travelling through grates, and should be set to allow for explosions in the positive or negative z axis. Rocket-car ftw.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 04:40:23 pm by MagicJuggler »
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Demonic Gophers

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Re: The Pyrotechnics Suggestions Thread
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2008, 05:23:41 pm »

So, what would be the difference in effect between basic mining charges and explosive traps hooked to levers?  Which would I plant in the hollowed out area beneath a camp of siegers?
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