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[MagicJuggler]

The original poster viewed them as separate items, that it would require a plunger. I don't see a difference between them as they are both explosive, the only difference being one has a linear charge as opposed to a directional one and thus the energy is more focused.

[StrayCat]

Jesus Christmas I've got a load of replies. I've been gone for what, half a day? Whoo! Working from bottom to top:

DG: The mining charges can be directed enough to make ten tiles on three different Z-axis dissapear with a single push of a plunger. The trap has varying damage (quite possibly greater if the creature is adjacent to the bloody bomb) and -much- more limited excavation abilities, but can be set off all on it's lonesome, like with pressure plates. If it was a large enough siege and you were -really- pissed enough, I'd hook up twenty mining charges created by my best alchemist. They'd form a twenty (x-axis) by ten (y-axis) by seventeen (Z-axis) pit-to-be. There'd be overlap, but there's no kill like overkill. detonate, wait four minutes for the framerate to go back down to normal, and look through the settled dust to see rather a lot of mined out rock for your hours of planning, digging, gathering, building, planting, and gleeful bouncing up and down.

MJ: 1) I'll include screw pump into the siege engine design, 2) but it's going to be lit the entire time. It's not going out unless it's destroyed- no lever ignited torches. 3) Goblin-flesh bombs? I don't get how getting hit with vaporized meat is more deadly than shrapnel or wood even. 4) Please to be keeping assorted ammo to incendiary and explosive stuff (Or casks of water, if you're thinking prevention), that's what this thread is about. 5) I haven't seen the vehicle thread before, and I'll rely on Toady (May He Be Merciful) to think physics in relation to vehicles. Iiiiii'm not thinking car(t) bombs. Don't think it's very practical. Then again, some of this stuff isn't practical by human standards either. To heck with it, I'll read the thread and think more about it.

D2.0: 1) Dunno about that. Using sparks to light kindling is easier than lighting a fuse. I'll say instead torch-making comes with fire imp fat to keep the thing lit constantly, makes all this so much easier. Maaan, if all this gets implemented, even some of it, Fire imps are going to have some serious people in business suits thinking very fondly of their corpses. 2) I'm good with the mist idea. Gonna add that. A chance of putting out other adjacent fires. 5) (Three sir!) 3) Explosives have varying and unpredictable consequences, especially the early explosives and late trap explosives. If a tile is as big as, say, a few square feet, a barrel of gunpowder is going to clear several of them, rock and sand alike. It's more dangerous than miners, the explosive traps shouldn't be inside a base (BAD THING) and can ruin your plans for a structure early on before you get a massive crater through an aquifer or through a wet or a warm wall you hadn't quite gotten to just yet. Take them out far from base, use them in exploratory mining and -distant- perimeter defense. These are explosives, people. *Dons Crocodile Hunter clothing* Danger Danger Danger! 4) Handheld -would- be better with thrown, and was my original plan until I did digging about the wiki when I discovered for some reason throwing isn't in Fortress mode. 5) Catapults do lob, the barrels are thrown.

Virex: 1) I've accounted for crappy pumping with the good chance the flamethrower dwarves can catch on fire or blow up (Stun, minimum. Lucky superdwarves). 2) We can't use throw in Fortress mode, though it would be leagues safer and more intelligent. Work from behind fortifications two, I believe. 3) Once again with the suicide bombing carts and ships! I'll look into the vehicle thread.

(Last one woo!)

DizzyElk: 1) Bugger, I didn't notice that, thanks. Well, cheating wouldn't be the best, so we'll just abandon the matches idea and think Imp Fat!(TM) for our torches.

Think that's everyone... And preview... All good and clear, and POST!

[MagicJuggler]

In the case of the meatchunk bomb, it would be a way to spread miasma in a long-term scale siege, and reduce the thought level of defending Goblins in a manner that they eventually go crazy and start tantruming in their own base.

What's wrong with a lever-ignited torch? There are some cases where you would want to first spread the oil THEN light it up after all. Plus lever-ignited torches would allow for remote delay-fused bombs or even rockets (E.g. a fuse ignites the rocket propulsion even as it makes its way to the core warhead). 

[Virex]

Historicaly, Arrows covered in burning pitch or tar were used to incinerate oil-covered targets, so they could also be used. They would also cause severe burnings upon hitting the opponent and could incinerate dry wood and grass. And any cloth the recipient would be wearing

[Duke 2.0]

In the case of the meatchunk bomb, it would be a way to spread miasma in a long-term scale siege, and reduce the thought level of defending Goblins in a manner that they eventually go crazy and start tantruming in their own base.

What's wrong with a lever-ignited torch? There are some cases where you would want to first spread the oil THEN light it up after all. Plus lever-ignited torches would allow for remote delay-fused bombs or even rockets (E.g. a fuse ignites the rocket propulsion even as it makes its way to the core warhead). 

 I think toady mentioned that evil creatures actually grow more powerful when in miasma. Heck, they likely get good thoughts from it.

 It's more of a them getting you with it sort of thing.

[StrayCat]

Didn't think of the miasma thing. Or the oil spraying thing. I'm wondering if you should set up oil spills by dwarf labor instead of the innacurate (it doesn't have to be) siege flamethrower. I think I'll do that, yes. But are there goblin forts out there? And do we know if catapults launch things, really, over walls? I'm relatively certain they go over people (until they don't), but walls? This bears research!

... And I have wanted to launch kobold's'n'rhesus's'n'fire imps from a catapult. On occasion. At a wall... Good thinking!

Agh, another new post!

I've read that mongolians did smoke, incendiary, and whistle arrows. I think there should be a game mechanic for lighting arrows up! Another one I missed, good thinking!

GOOD LORD DuKE JUST POSTED AS WELL! Thank whomever made this WARNING- while you were typing a new reply has been posted Thingy, man is it useful... Oh, they do? Can you pull a quote, I'd like to see that!

[MagicJuggler]

There are goblin towers made of obsidian. You generally don't want to start near them as you will die. It was mentioned Miasma would only help Goblins, but did I mention Gobbos? Crap I did...Elves are a better target then. What with their fancy-pants tree-worshipping ways. Gas them out and enslave the survivors.

As for the oil-spray, you could use oil tanks and have them pour through murderholes, then light them once they reach the bottom with a lever-torch. E.g. you have your corridor

First Floor
==========
TXXXXXXXXX
TXXXXXXXXX
==========

The = represents a wall, X represents a floor, and T represents a lever torch.

The Second Floor
PPPPPPPPPPP
FFFFFFFFFFF
OOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOO
FFFFFFFFFFF
PPPPPPPPPPP

For this floor, the P represents Oil, the O represents Open Space, and the F represents Floodgates.

So the idea would be we pull a switch, the floodgates open and oil pours down into the 1st floor, entering contact with the flame source, and creating kentucky-fried Goblin.

[StrayCat]

I see what's going through your head, but:

Why the heck don't we just let there be a "coat tile" command for oil? Have a dwarf pick up one oil, coat a tile in it, done! Put it over an ignite trap, have THAT attached to a lever. Maybe we can have something separate that'd work with the lighting arc, like rows of Candelabrum that turn on and off at the flick of a lever... Why would they turn on at the flick of a lever? What starts the flames? Isn't it simpler just to use ingite traps instead with a coated floor? Just recoat after your shake'n'bake session (Emphasis on the bake).

[MagicJuggler]

I'm not saying coat tile isn't valid, but the option of being able to get screw pumps to do it FOR you is also good.

[Virex]

We should at least be able to pour boiling stuff, even if we don't get burning oil. imagine the following construction:

(Up is the Z-axis)

Code: [Select]

=========
=LLLLLLL=
====T====
FFF= =FFF
==== ====
               
========== is a wall.
T is a trap door
L is a liquid of choice (or maybe even fat walls if those will melt)
T is a trap door.
Link the trap door to a lever or a pressure plate and watch as your opponents get covered in burning liquid.

[Footkerchief]

I like the idea of dwarves automatically putting out fires (dependent maybe on a Orders option).  I'd do it slightly differently -- any burning object creates an "Extinguish fire" job, which causes a dwarf to grab a bucket and dump water on it.  Also, seriously, it's about time dwarves were smart enough not to pick up things that are ON FIRE.

The rest... I'm not crazy about.  I can do without gunpowder in DF (although expansions to the raws allowing manufacture of explosive powders, etc. at whatever workshop would be amazing).  Flamethrowers seem a little ridiculous too.

Flaming catapult projectiles would be a good, plausible start.

[Kidiri]

Wouldn't it be better to have grenades using the Throwing skill?

In general, I support this idea. It could lead to some 'modern' weaponry, when using a charge at the end of a 'barrel', and then shooting items or creatures. But it could also lead to some new means of transportation. I've been thinking of using water as a means of carrying goods and moving Dwarves vertically (or horizontally), but this system poses some serious problems. Most of them are in relation to the fact that 7/7 water doesn't push things around. This system could be applied when explosions are implemented. The only thing we would need is some sort of rails with a platform to make it remotely safe. This would also be handy with my water-based design, but isn't necessary.

I don't know if water cannons've been a recent human invention, but the game says dwarves are ahead of the engineering world by that they have steel.

According to Wikipedia, steel has been around since 1400BC.

Some of the first steel comes from East Africa, dating back to 1400 BC.

the big advantage of Greek fire over other incendiary substances is that you can douse it with watter.

This depends on the source, some people think the great advantage to Greek fire is that it couldn't be put out with water.

Each time you say "ready catapult", you say "select type of ammo" (allowing you to launch stuff such as dead cattle, or Goblin prisoners), and you then have the option to "unload ammo" based on if you need to change ammo-type.

This is an ideal chance for Monty Python-style 'fetchez la vache'-sieges. Now only we need taunting...

I'm not saying coat tile isn't valid, but the option of being able to get screw pumps to do it FOR you is also good.

This is easily done: treat oil like a liquid, and have it have a residue when it has passed over a floor. Like mud, blood, ichor, goo... Also make it so that you can make coating jobs, if you want to keep your Dwarves busy. But use pumps for quick

[Terry von Feledae]

I couldn't particularily associate with most of these ideas, but I do swoon at the thought of explosive ballista bolts and rocket powered vehicles(which are really two steps away from the things suggested).

Of course, the fact that the fire-related AI decisions should be fixed goes without saying. I just hate it when a dwarf picks up something that is on fire, catches on fire himself and then runs into the meeting hall where all the other dwarves are.

[StrayCat]

There is no throwing skill in Fortress Mode. If Toady hasn't included it yet, there's a reason for it, so until he announces he's going to put throwing in, this stays using the hammerdwarf skill. Or Macedwarf. Thinking about changing it because there's nothing yet that makes a macedwarf stand out from a hammerdwarf. Or maybe adding in a new category altogether, though I can't imagine the name for it.

[Kidiri]

There is no throwing skill in Fortress Mode. If Toady hasn't included it yet, there's a reason for it, so until he announces he's going to put throwing in, this stays using the hammerdwarf skill.

Actually, there is. When a Dwarf tantrums, he'll occasionally throw stuff around. He'll be a dabbling thrower. I've seen it happen with one of my mayors.