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[inaluct]

They're assuming B12 enriched stuff is really expensive, and so only rich people can afford it. It isn't expensive, but not everyone knows that, I guess.

[Toady One]

DF is B12 enriched.  It requires a computer though.

[inaluct]

See, people? B12 is free. Even Toady supports my point. How can you argue with Toady!?

So, now that your argument's legs have been caved in under it by the massive maul of reason, you have no reason to not grovel.

[Vaftrudner]

DF is B12 enriched.  It requires a computer though.

Wait a minute, you've already taken my social life, my love life and my nightly sleep - are you going to take my milk now? There's a line!

[Pilsu]

And I haven't read a single argument from you why B12 fortificated food would be a bad thing, except you're not "born with a silver spoon in your mouth". Huh. What?

6 billion people being sustained by vitamin pills is not realistic. Only reason you can even complain about this is the fact you were lucky enough to be born in luxury, otherwise you'd be too busy trying not to die to engage in such frivolous activism. Most of the world's population eats little else but rice every day and is severely malnutrioned. Getting told you're so far up your ass you won't eat meat because it might hurt the animal's feelings would probably get you a faceful of a bladed implement

Their calves have to go somewhere. They might frolic in the fields a little bit longer but they'll still be murdered and eaten

Mind you, that eco crap you talk about to my knowledge isn't animal friendly, it's components are simply grown more naturally such as foregoing pesticides in the feed. Unless it's completely different from ours


What I'm really interested in where your B12 comes from. Yes, fortified food. But where did that come from? They didn't just conjure a vitamin out of thin air

[Tilla]

pshh, if you want Vitamin B12 just drink Final Fantasy energy drinks - 6667% of your daily B12 intake. Seriously.

[IndonesiaWarMinister]

pshh, if you want Vitamin B12 just drink Final Fantasy energy drinks - 6667% of your daily B12 intake. Seriously.

Even the potion is 100% more, and only 1 (!) $!!

Not kidding. 1000 yen is 1$.

[John Johnston]

Most of the world's population eats little else but rice every day and is severely malnutrioned.

That's seriously inaccurate.  A lot of people do eat a lot of rice, but not "most people eating little else", not by a very long way.  Nor are "most people severely malnutrutioned", whether they eat rice or other staple foods; maybe one person in ten is, which is quite bad enough.

[Vaftrudner]

What I'm really interested in where your B12 comes from. Yes, fortified food. But where did that come from? They didn't just conjure a vitamin out of thin air

B12 is actually not produced by animals themselves, but by bacteria. It is possible to synthezise by fermenting those bacteria, isolated from animals, and this is done on an industrial scale. And no, I'm not such a hippy that I have a problem with bacteria being used for my diet If you're interested, the process is described in detail here:

http://www.ias.ac.in/resonance/June2003/pdf/June2003p8-16.pdf

Now, you have a point about the calves. I don't actually know if the calves of the milk cows stay on the ecological farms that my milk comes from. I'll have to think about my milk-drinking, thanks for a relevant argument.

The part about people living in poverty - why is that relevant in any way to my situation? Are you arguing that it's wrong to consider a vegetarian diet just because millions of people don't have any choice whatsoever and struggle just to eat? If so, I suggest that you stop using antibiotics, condoms and stay out of heated buildings, because there are parts of the world where those things don't exist. One may argue that it's wrong that we spend our time synthezising B12 for people who live in luxury and simply don't want to eat meat. But there's no way I can change the lives of millions of people living in poverty. My diet, however, is a personal choice. I've never argued for world vegetarianism neither - once again, it's my personal choice. I won't stop you from eating meat, as long as you don't stop me from eating beans.

Edit: Oh, I forgot. The "eco crap" is the situation in Sweden. When I didn't live in Sweden, I didn't drink milk, because the eco seemed to truly be crap there.

[inaluct]

Here in the U.S., we relish the taste of our tainted milk. It's good for you. Builds up your immune system.

Sometimes we import Chinese milk right before flu season for that extra built up resilience.

[Duke 2.0]

Here in the U.S., we relish the taste of our tainted milk. It's good for you. Builds up your immune system.

Sometimes we import Chinese milk right before flu season for that extra built up resilience.

 And gain a healthy layer of mercury on our skin.

[dreiche2]

I'm a vegetarian myself, and fully support Vaftrudner's arguments.

I'd also like to point out that even if drinking milk is bad morally in some way, it's still better than drinking milk AND eating meat (unless you replace the meat totally with equivalent amounts of milk in your diet - equivalent in terms of ethical consequences). Personally, I've always consumed a lot of milk and becoming a vegetarian did not change that.

Drinking milk but being a vegetarian is not hypocrisy if you acknowledge the negative consequences of the former (if any). It's just a matter of acknowledging that you're not perfect, but take steps towards the right direction. Otherwise, the implication would be that you should not ever try to be ethical because you will never be perfect.

IMO, it's a flawed argument about the need of being consequential/not a "hypocrite" that keeps many people from improving things (e.g. "if I would stop eating meat, shouldn't I also stop drinking milk, wearing leather, stepping on insects, etc., so instead I do nothing at all"). I guess that reasoning kind of makes sense if your ethics are based on principles, not consequences. For me it's the latter, so even eating just half the amount of meat is already a laudable improvement over the status quo for me.

Also, as has been pointed out before, that other people do not have the choice to make the right ethical decision does not imply anywhere that I should not make it for my part - oh, and as others have pointed out, there is not only the ethical but also the ecological (and indirectly again ethical) side of vegetarianism. Those people "not trying to die of malnutrition" would overall be better off if not so many resources would be wasted towards the luxury of meat production...

[winner]

I stopped eating bread after I realized it was made of ground up wheat fetuses.

About the article: "the sun" is a tabloid; the stories they have aren't true.

[Ezuku]

On topic:

I think it's funny that PETA's comments would be accidentally justifying eating cats to most audiences by comparing it to eating all other animals.

Off topic:

Re B12, incredibly gross fact, you can also get some from eating organic vegetables you haven't washed properly, I won't spell it out though.

But being vegan (as opposed to vegetarian) pretty much means you need to look to artificial sources of B12, else you'll eventually get nasty effects.

Also, it's actually kinda hard for children to be vegetarian, because of their protein requirement and all that. Remember that the iron in vegetables isn't as "good" as that in meat, and thus is much harder to absorb, and that protein in vegetables is in different ratios to that in meat. Just food for thought.

Also, if I recall correctly, the optimum amount of meat you should eat is about 500g a week, and most people eat too much causing a few health problems.

[inaluct]

I stopped eating bread after I realized it was made of ground up wheat fetuses.

Damn, that is signature material.