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[Keilden]

You don't raise cows to milk them then butcher them, you either raise them to eat or milk. Just wanted you to know:)

[Wiles]

Milk contains enough B12 to see you through the day. Milk is not meat to me, although some vegans would disagree. B12 does exist as an additive in several products for vegans, but I don't know about the silver spoon bit. In Europe, where I live, these are not particularly expensive.

Milk has it's downsides. Casein, the protein in milk is hard for the body to process. Many people are sensitive to the lactose in milk.

Also, new studies are showing a pathogens that survives the pasteurization process, the M.A.P. virus can be passed on to humans through milk. Research is showing that this is possibly a cause of Crohn's disease.

[Vaftrudner]

Milk contains enough B12 to see you through the day. Milk is not meat to me, although some vegans would disagree. B12 does exist as an additive in several products for vegans, but I don't know about the silver spoon bit. In Europe, where I live, these are not particularly expensive.

So is your problem that livestock die or that they suffer?  I doubt cattle raised for milk are treated much, if any, better than cattle raised for meat (and presumably also milk).

My problem is not that they die. All animals die. The problem is how they die and much more importantly, how they live.

Now, at least where I live (Sweden), I have the option of purchasing ecological milk. It's a bit more expensive, but the money finances bi-yearly controls by state authorities at the milk farms to ensure that calves get to spend time with their mothers to build up their immune defence, that cows get to graze freely for parts of the year and that cows are milked less than at non-ecological farms (over-milking is hazardous to a cow's health). Milk can only be labeled ecological if it meets the quite strict demands of the inspectors. I don't know if there are similar standards in the UK or USA, where I guess most people here are from. I didn't find the same standards when I lived in Ireland for half a year, so I didn't drink milk there, I had B12-fortified cereals instead

Milk has it's downsides. Casein, the protein in milk is hard for the body to process. Many people are sensitive to the lactose in milk.

Also, new studies are showing a pathogens that survives the pasteurization process, the M.A.P. virus can be passed on to humans through milk. Research is showing that this is possibly a cause of Crohn's disease.

I have yet to see a type of food that won't kill me in some way Seriously though, the many nutrients in milk make up for the increased risk of heart disease and other possible diseases. And it's yummy. Mm.

[Earthquake Damage]

You don't raise cows to milk them then butcher them, you either raise them to eat or milk. Just wanted you to know:)

I wasn't sure on that point.  Thanks.

[Kagus]

Yeah, cow milk is nutritious.  But it's nutritious to calves, not humans.  We're just not built to absorb it all properly.

I used to be lactose intolerant, but I apparently outgrew it.  I still avoid it when possible though, partly out of habit and partly because I've picked up more reasons to avoid it than a simple allergy. 

But then again, I will happily consume goat and sheep milk products without a second thought.  Which is perfectly logical, because I don't know what it does (aside from phlegm and zit production, that is).


I'm a vegetarian.  Mostly because I was raised to be vegetarian, but also because you pick up a lot of "other side" arguments when you happen to be on that other side.  Considering the current status of the meat industry and the animals involved in it, I wouldn't be too keen on eating commercial meat.

If I ever do decide to go through a week or so of indigestion while working up a supply of the proper meat-processing enzymes, I'd most likely keep to fresh game meat.  Not that that doesn't have its downsides, mind you.  But again, I don't know about them, so it's perfectly healthy!


And that thing about the M.A.P. virus possibly being related to Crohn's disease is something I admittedly find rather funny.  Drink the milk and you'll end up having to eat the cow.


Also:


Where's the beef?

[Toady One]

Where's the beef?

You have to shoot it out of the nozzle, like the Taco Bell meat gun.

[Guy Montag]

Milk gives a lot people the gut-quakes, and some people become lactose intolerant when they get older. Milk is delicious, but yeah, a lot of people can't digest it right. Anyways, I thought people that objected to the consumption of meat on the grounds that its harmful to animals objected to eggs and milk too. Then again, a lot of other stuff is made from animal by products too. I mean, Jell-o is basically meat.


I don't personally see any problem with killing an animal and eating it. Certainly animals do this, and people are animals, soo... My main objection to meat consumption is that it is wasteful of land that could be used to grow crops and that cattle are fed food that could be feeding people. Its not that big of an issue today, because food is as cheap and abundant as it has ever been, but with the population boom, and the increasing fuel prices I think less meat should be raised, and crop production should take priority over this.
Market forces might turn us all into de facto vegetarians in the nightmare dystopia future, because meat will simply be too expensive for day-to-day consumption for a lot of people. Its too expensive for a lot of people today anyways. Goats and sheep can be fed garbage and stuff, so in this horrible future I suppose there is always that. Soylent green is always an option as well.

[sneakey pete]

So is your problem that livestock die or that they suffer?  I doubt cattle raised for milk are treated much, if any, better than cattle raised for meat (and presumably also milk).

Depends. A lot of Dairy Here seems to be done by smaller farmers. Most are not treated as badly as PETA would have you think.

[ChJees]

I have heard that Scandinavians can drink milk without any negative effects happening. Even adults.

Maybe it is a genetic thing .

And don't diss meat >:c.

[Vaftrudner]

I have heard that Scandinavians can drink milk without any negative effects happening. Even adults.

Maybe it is a genetic thing .

And don't diss meat >:c.

Hahaha, of course Wikipedia has a bloody map of it. Apparently only 2% of Swedes are intolerant to lactose, while 12% of European Americans, 75% of African Americans and 90% of Asian Americans are. I had no idea. Well that explains why so many Americans seem to be negative towards milk, I thought it was mainly a cultural thing It's something of a staple here, and our children are encouraged to drink it every day, at least the fat-reduced "light milk" of about 0.5% or less fat and with vitamin additives. Sorry for digressing, I hope that I'm not the only one to have a perverted interest in milk.

[martinuzz]

I have been a vegetarian for many years. I  'sin' now and then, so I'm not that strict.
Strangely, the reason why I eat meat sometimes, is because of it's price. I'm not exactly rich. For me, to stay healthy as a vegetarian, I need to eat varied. Yet a lot of the good 'replacement' stuff is quite expensive in Holland. Meat, on the other hand, is heavily subsidized by the government.

Main reason for me to choose not to eat meat, has been mentioned before: Waste of rescource.
Too much land is used for herding instead of farming. What's worse, every day still, tropical forest are being cut down to make way for big cattle ranches.

On the other hand, there is a similar problem with soy-products. For soy, a lot of rainforest is being cut down, and what's worse, over-fertilizing of the created farms (because rainforest soil is very, very poor soil; rainforest thrives on itself) causes the nutrients to wash into the sea, causing massive damage to coastal ecosystems.

But then, consider that most of the soy produced is used for making food for cattle, and not for feeding the vegetarians around the world.

As for milk; It is true that scandinavian people, and people in western Europe in general, have a recent (say, like 20.000 year) mutation that enables them to endure milk. I say: endure.
It still does not mean that we are fully capable of digesting milk properly. It only means that we have less cases of lactose sensitivity among the population, then, say, Asian or African countries.

I think that eating meat or drinking milk is not automatically bad for your health.
But the tendency to eat meat and drink milk every day, I'd say, is not healthy.

Gruesome fact: All Herbivores have 7 meters of colon lenght. All Carnivores only have 2 meters.
Why? Even in your stomach, and in your colon, meat keeps decomposing (rotting). Most bacteria involved in that process are resistant to our acid's stomach and most enzymes involved in digestion. Meat needs to be digested and excreted quickly...

[flap]

Well, they mentioned the European beef industry, which is the exact same thing, pretty much.

Anyway, those deformed Peruvians (living so close to Brazil, it has to be true) are all going to get toxoplasmosis.

Well, one third of the world population has toxoplasmosis already.

[Footkerchief]

Gruesome fact: All Herbivores have 7 meters of colon lenght. All Carnivores only have 2 meters.
Why? Even in your stomach, and in your colon, meat keeps decomposing (rotting). Most bacteria involved in that process are resistant to our acid's stomach and most enzymes involved in digestion. Meat needs to be digested and excreted quickly...

Huh?  Meat is simply easier to digest than plant matter.  Specifically, herbivores have longer digestive tracts because it takes a long time for THEIR symbiotic bacteria to break down cellulose, which is also "rotting" by your definition. 

[Guy Montag]

Yeah, I agree with that stance as well. Which why I also think "organic" farming is wasteful as well. Its inefficent, both in terms of land use and fuel use as the logistics train for organic food is much less efficent then with conventional farming.

I disagree with how cattle are handled in that they are stuck in pens and eat out of a trough filled with soy feed. This is the economical way to meet demand for beef today, but I think the future the agricultural focus will shift toward grain production for human use.

Cattle should be strictly placed in grazing areas where the soil or climate is not suited for any economic farming. I think that letting cattle graze in open feilds of scrubland or whatever satisfies any ethical issue... It would be cattle doing what they do, roaming around eating. I can't think of a more fulfilling life a cow could have then that.

I don't eat much meat because of its expense because I'm just a frugal bastard like that, and I suppose in the future, alot of people won't either.  People will be eating Soy burgers and what have you.

Not sure how it will work out, but I think population will cap out. In developed, industrialized nations, the population is in decline. Russia is a good example of this. So I think once nations like India and China reach this point, the demand for food will level out as well. I don't think food shortages will be a permanant problem in the future, simply because land usage can be made more efficient and will be able to meet the demand. I read somewhere that the planet could support 22 billion people if managed extremely carefully, but I don't think people would be at the same standard of living we have today with that many people running around. I don't think the world is overpopulated yet, but there will likely be a significant decline in the standard of living when resources become scarce.

[McDoomhammer]

Guy Montag... Fahrenheit 451, right?

I say: endure.

In enduring, grow strong.

Gruesome fact: All Herbivores have 7 meters of colon lenght. All Carnivores only have 2 meters.
Why? Even in your stomach, and in your colon, meat keeps decomposing (rotting). Most bacteria involved in that process are resistant to our acid's stomach and most enzymes involved in digestion. Meat needs to be digested and excreted quickly...

There's also the fact that plant material is much much harder to digest than meat because it's so different and has the hard cell walls.  Hence the 4 stomachs, cud chewing, and the habit of some vegetarian primates of eating their feces to give it another pass.

Since we're sharing, I'm not vegetarian.  Frankly, I just like meat, though when I can I much prefer free-range, organic, local produce.  I only ever eat fast food as a very occasional treat, at least while I'm in England.

However, I also like vegetables.  I'm engaged to a vegetarian, and developed a taste for some of the meat-free products we originally bought for her, so at any given time my freezer usually contains several boxes of vege-burgers, vegetable sausages, vegetable pies, and so forth- sometimes I'll go a few days eating nothing or almost nothing animal without really noticing.

Re: Ecological produce, there are various products here that use higher standards of animal care as their main selling point, but I don't think there is an official standard like the Swedish one described.  It sounds like a good system.

Re: milk?  It's good, but for general consumption I'd rather have fruit juice.  Mmmmmm fruit.