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[Terry von Feledae]

I support that idea as well, as long as those things can't ruin your fortress permanently due to a minor oversight. I'd hate to have to step into war with another race because of one sexual deviant or have a stolen masterpiece drive one of my dwarves into an unstoppable berserk rage.

[StrayCat]

So long as they take time, I'd be happy if you not paying attention to a series of suspicions events and sleuthing your way out of it gets your fort utterly annihilated by anarchists. If you see

Obsidian Statue has been defaced! Urist McLegendaryMason has thrown a tantrum!
Urist McMaybeAnarchist admires a fine graffiti defacement
Obsidian Statue has been defaced! Urist McLegendaryMason has thrown a tantrum!
Urist McMaybeAnarchist admires a fine graffiti defacement
Obsidian Statue has been defaced! Urist McLegendaryMason has thrown a tantrum!
Urist McMaybeAnarchist admires a fine graffiti defacement
Obsidian Statue has been defaced! Urist McLegendaryMason has thrown a tantrum!
Urist McMaybeAnarchist admires a fine graffiti defacement

And you don't pay any damn attention, I say you deserve a civil war. Which is bound to be a barrel of fun right there. Hell, first time I encounter this, I'd encourage any perversions I think I've sniffed out. I want to see what happens and if I'm good enough to handle organizing riot control and losing 3/4ths of my fort to civil war, inquisition, and a rather fun game of Mafia: DF Edition amongst all the people. Oh, and another hint is if someone utterly random throws a tantrum if someone else carries a body away for burial first. Or you notice someone -not idle- stopping their movement near the trade depot when humans or elves are about. Or that guy who only -ever- starts by injuring an opponents legs (maybe so they can't run from him/causes them agony without killing them often/gives him more time?) and takes triple the amount of time to finish an opponent as others do. Or an inquisitor who doesn't question, and instead just starts mandating the hammerer break hands after hands after hands without gathering information. Unless there's torture, in which case he'll only torture people. Or a man who hangs out constantly by the still when idled, which is then deconstructed and the materials in his inventory (not stockpiled, and who checks inventories of characters regularly?). Or someone admiring trap... After trap... After door... After ballista... after catapult... only those things, and following the mechanic about as he constructs things, whilst listed under another task, but following the mechanic for brief spells.

I'd say... four, five years before things start kicking into mid-gear and personality psychoses come out to play, five and a half, six before the big problems start coming out. Should be plenty of time for a base to start getting dull enough to want a civil war, or war with the humans, or war with the elves, or an inquisition manhunt.

[penguinofhonor]

Oh hell civil wars would be so amazing. I wholeheartedly support anything that will cause my entire fort to schism.

[inaluct]

I am in support of this idea.

I'd sort of like the traits to be non-hidden, though, so I could have a Communist Party an anarchy-squad with no labors enabled to kill my nobles for me.

[StrayCat]

And I swear, if the misanthrope doesn't devolve into a serial killer or mass murderer, I will find you and beat you with oranges until you smell of that healthy vitamin-C from across the room and you have nothing but yellow wounds. Get it? Yello- shoot, oranges are orange. Uhm. Wait! I got it! Lemons! But then you won't smell of healthy vitamin C... Shoot, aw forget it, just make sure that the misanthrope turns into something nasty. OR ELSE I SHALL GLARE AT MY COMPUTER SCREEN WITH GREAT INDIGNATION AND TYPE NASTY THINGS ABOUT YOU ON SOMEONE ELSE'S LIVEJOURNAL.

You shouldn't have them listed, that defeats the purpose of it mate. Maybe mod it if you want so it -is-, but don't have it off the bat listed. Just observe them defacing carvings and nobles rooms, then put them all in a squad, then give them no labor. Deduction, man.

I think I'll compile some end results I've thought up:

Sadist: Eventually cannot do enough to satisfy his sadistic urges and starts crippling everyone he sees for life in a sort of "focused-Insanity" only maiming and mangling people. Will carry around several weapons to crush and slash and gore and hack away at people, breaking bones, rending flesh, and chopping off limbs until he's taken down. Which could take quite some time if it happens during a battle, or there's no traps inside the fort perimeter where he lives.

Sexual Deviant: Could start producing monter hybrids of things that are just wrong (tentacle demon + Male Dwarf = Ohgodmyeyes!) not to mention downright dangerous, or could end trade relations all at once and forever, along with sieges to follow. A "slighter" effect is that a plague of puppy sodomy and dwarven butt-burgling leads to the inquisition being called down and there being a mass lynching, corpses hung up in the main meeting area, or strewn across the statues in the statue garden.

Heretic: Worst case is the cult gets large enough, and it turns into a civil war. Except the cult has demons on it's side. And quite possibly half your military.

Sober: The stills are destroyed, the brewers killed in their beds, and all the booze dumped into the ground. Tantrums ensue, riots ensue, slaughter ensues.

Infiltrator: A massive siege arrives. S'alright, right, let the traps and fail-safes and lads in armor handle it, right? Wrong. The goblins/whatever are stealthed this time. No one saw it coming. Traps're disabled, the moat is redirected, Levers undone, the doors are gone, the weapons misplaced, and the siege starts once enough of your military men are asleep. Sucks to be you.

Anarchist: Civil war. Utter pandemonium. Destruction of lots of property. And you end up controlling the victor. Go you?

Thief: A dwarven mafia gets set up, fencing needed supplies to goblins, humans, elves, and whomever else can pay up. Rent is due, and anyone speaking up is quickly silenced, order of the DwarfFather. There's a secret war on now, between the innocents and the guilty and the inquisition, and everyone's going to get hurt. Prepare for lots of murders in the night with dwarves slaughtered in their beds.

Necrophiliac: Eventually the wrong granpappy gets "boned", if you know what I mean. Mass lynchings begin, and it doesn't stop after the necrophile dies, if he dies during the lynchings. Everyone is to blame, no one is innocent, and the world dissolves into grudges, tantrums, riots, crackdowns, and utter slaughter from which you may never recover.


Misanthropy: Minimum: The dwarf goes serial killing, always cutting off a body part and keeping it or taking the shirt or the pants and leaving their bum hanging out for the watchmen to find. Medium:The man berserks, going on a killing spree, locked in an enraged and a martial trance. He's the juggernaut powered solely by his hatred and spite for all life alone. The Max? Ooh baby, this is gonna be fun. Urist is gonna haver herself competition. Insanity takes hold, and no creature shall escape this dwarf's cold fury. The disgusting creatures crawling about in darkness shall be sterilized, and none shall become whole. What powers this dwarf is unique- it's more than anger, it's more than loathing- it is pure, platonic hatred of all life. Consider him the worst thing that can happen to your fortress. He is the Implacable man, and made of steel. He'll suit up in any weapons and armor available (and upgrade from dead corpses), grab a pick for good measure, and go to town, taking a few levels in agility, toughness, and strength, along with entering martial trance and enrage. He is your new nightmare, your worst nightmare, your last nightmare. He will be the dwarf under the bed of your children- until they are hacked to pieces or boiled by lava. The place is locked down, lava is dug in, miasma is let out, kittens and baby dwarves have their throats ripped apart by his teeth, fires are set, buildings torn down, and the entire fortress is going to go falling eight Z-stories straight into Buttf***ed, Region * ( <---that's a sphincter for those not associated with ASCII orifices). If you don't figure out and put a stop to this madman, your fortress and the very region itself may be doomed. He will kill them all.


And now I think I'll go to sleep.

[Rawl]

I once more agree with this idea, but I definitely think that this should be a more uncommon thing. In a town of two hundred people the chances of having 50 mass murderers seems a little unlikely, that's not to say however that your fort gets the bad roll and DOES get a whole Migration of *GASP* non beer swilling layabouts.

I just think that too much of a neat idea like this could just make me want to bash my keyboard through my monitor yelling "NOT Necrophiliacs!!! I WANT Infiltrators!!!", but seriously great idea.

[Joutilas]

Maybe there are certain "design" choises that increase the likelihood of "bad apples" developing. Like not having a fortress guard/sheriff (or not having a jail), having a huge gap between the poor and the nobility etc. Just like in normal society.

Come on, you really expect that the constant slaughter of puppies and the horrible "accidents" that face the nobility will have no effect on the dwarven psyche?

Actually, the desensitization is a good case example of cultural development within the fortress that could lead into negative traits becoming more commonplace (sadism, misanthropy). It's partially affecting all the dwarves, but only the ones who have their "dark side" already will fall to their negative traits.

We already have quite a few characteristics that could act as hints for finding out potential troublemakers (doesn't like working with others, dislikes authority, likes tentacle demons etc.). Now the trouble would be that two thirds of them are false flags. The guy just happens to like demons, thats all!

If you expand the negative traits enough, then in theory everyone could have their dark side. Naturally only a fraction of this would be revealed in normal cases, but if things start REALLY going to the wrong direction, then all hell would break loose (a.k.a. decadent fortress).

And what a legendary ending for a fortress that would be

[Tack]

I think you should have a 1-10 severity, and as the severity goes up, so does the likeliness of it happening. Like necrophelia.

1: Dwarf visits the graveyard in his break sometimes, instead of going to the meeting area.

2: Dwarf visits graveyard often, and gets a happy thought from "being with his friends"

3: Dwarf eats and drinks in the graveyard sometimes.

4: Dwarf takes random breaks from work, this shows up on the unit screen as a green "on break" to visit the graveyard.

5: Dwarf visits graveyard at night, and often during the day. grave sites are vandalised.

6: Dwarf is in graveyard for hours on end. Graves are destroyed and corpses are found on the ground.

7: Dwarf eats, sleeps, drinks and takes breaks in the graveyard. A certain deceased dwarf is seen to be it's "lover" in the profile.

8: Dwarf leaves the graveyard to work, and only to work. He/she takes longer than normal breaks.

9: A number of graves are destroyed per night, there is a great happy thought. The dwarf sleeps with incredibly old corpses, going almost to skeletons.

10: The dwarf refuses to leave the graveyard and openly uses corpses all the time, regardless of rank, age, or time deceased.

Of course i thought up these ones up on the spot, so they may be bad, but if you don't like it whatever.
Also i was thinking that a level 6 heretic could inspire young children to grow into level 1 heretics, or convince other dwarves to become heretics. That way you can make them extremely rare, but dangerous if left for a while, whilst a sadist just walks around hurting people. Level one could be he hangs around the barracks in his free time, level 5 he kills cats and dogs, level 10 he arms himself and thinks himself a "justice maker" I.e. like a hammerer, but more dangerous and less restrained in his punishment, whether they committed a crime or not.

I also thought that some of those could have opposites, such as Peace lover, who often breaks up sparring sessions, or drunkards, who drink far more than anyone else, and clutter the still with their personal objects.

[StrayCat]

Drunkard? For a dwarf? All he gets is a medal, maybe some looks of envy and jealousy for being capable of consuming so much alcohol (and using so much of it), but that man isn't a menace to society. He's not going to annihilate the still. He'd probably kill the Sober (designation).

I think the rarity of these guys does need to be upped. One every... One hundred dwarves? And sheriffs and hammerer's'll sniff'em out easier than other people- /Suspicious/Wary/Watching are good relationship terms, appliable to authority figures and the Inquisition.

Joutilas, got a suggestion for the Inquisition?

[Calessa Lynn Orphiel]

quietly[...] with great smacking noises

Wat?

[StrayCat]

quietly[...] with great smacking noises

Wat?

I was not so subtly implying that the hammerer was castrating the sexual deviant. With his hammer. And the deviant's testicles. And several vigorous raising and rushing downward motions on the part of the hammer. And the stone underneath the sexual deviant's marbles being not only bloodsplattered, but cracked.

[Joutilas]

Joutilas, got a suggestion for the Inquisition?

I'm not totally sure how it'd fit into Toady's vision, but maybe somethink akin to "Inquisition" would be applicable - with or without the religious connotations that the term has. They could be in charge of weeding out the heretics/traitors/rebels amongst the dwarven populace as well as interrogating prisoners. After all, at the moment you don't have much to do with all the goblin prisoners you get.

Interrogating prisoners could bring some information about incoming attacks and would be more useful once the politics arc is in place.

Inqusition should be led by noble who has apprentices helping him out. They would take over prisoner management from normal peasants, and would required workshop of their own. Somethink akin to Joe Abercrombie's "The Blade Itself" would be quite cool

[Virex]

May I add several new categories to the discussion?

-Pyromaniac: Once lighting and torches are implemented, we could have someone with an unusual interest for all things incendiary. Effects could range from taking breaks near braziers and magma pits to becoming friends with Fire Imps to *gasp!* burning booze stockpiles!

-Zealot: "They're wrong! They are all wrong! And I will show them!!". A character that doesn't get along well with those that do not share his (religious) views. At low levels, he'd just get into debates with "unbelievers". At higher levels, he might start rows, deface statues and engravings of "false gods" or even become a messianic figure for his God, ultimately causing a rift in the fortress on religious grounds.

-Revolutionary: In essence similar to an Anarchist. He's bent on overthrowing the order. But he does not do it in the same way. Instead he instigates, talks and sets people up against each other. He could cause people to become anarchists, dislikes nobles and makes people dislike nobles and could even challange the mayor for control over the fortress. He could also leave with a part of the population (probably after a row) to settle somewhere else.

[Mikademus]

This suggestion has my full support, partly because it adds some interesting twists to the personality aspect of the dwarves, and partly because it provides the mechanisms for some truly outstanding innovations and additions to the game.

1) First of all, I don't think that miscreants should only be punished (punishing the body has never done much to rectify the mind of a deviant), therefore they should be rehabilitated (if caught early enough) and thus we have a new workshop, the ASYLUM. In this a dwarf of high enough social skills can help "cure" a deviant dwarf, thus a new need for social skills.

2) The idea of deviances being contagious and spreading (metastasising) throughout a fortress, eventually turning it into a new direction, brings us to the idea of FORTRESS MODES: a fortress can be "normal" (aligned to vanilla dwarfdom), "evil"/"deviant" (governed by daemonic or other "evil" minds), and "decadent"/"degenerate" (lust, perversion etc has taken over).

3) The notion of CIVIL WAR was brought up in this thread. The spreading mindset will create factions within a fortress that when reaching a critical threshold will turn into a civil war. That is, civil wars occur in, when and due to the border zone of competing mindsets.

Having your fortress go through these stated would make the game be rated A for "Awesome" with a cherry on top!

[Tack]

Shouldn't zealot just be an overenthusiastic soldier, i.e. ignoring wounds? maybe an extreme would be him going beserk during battle? running ahead of the other soldiers?