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[Marlowe]

^ is racist and Spartans were men lovers. USE CAPS TO SET THREAD CRUISE CONTROL. IT CRUISES TO THE END OF ALL PAGES.

Meh. They're MY students and I love them. But I'll stop calling them goblins when they stop trying to steal stuff off my desk.

[Jude]

Eh, the homosexuality doesn't bother me as much as it probably should. It was just a cultural thing.

Also totally baffling from an evolutionary psychological standpoint, AFAICT.

But not from a social standpoint, considering that Greeks tended to think that women were so unintelligent they might as well be animals. Sexism was so rife in their culture that homosexuality was seen as the only way to have a proper romantic relationship.

I guess, but again from an evolutionary standpoint I can't make sense of the idea that misogyny (common in basically every culture) would lead to extensive homosexuality (not common in every culture)

Oh well

[Marlowe]

Eh, the homosexuality doesn't bother me as much as it probably should. It was just a cultural thing.

Also totally baffling from an evolutionary psychological standpoint, AFAICT.

But not from a social standpoint, considering that Greeks tended to think that women were so unintelligent they might as well be animals. Sexism was so rife in their culture that homosexuality was seen as the only way to have a proper romantic relationship.

I guess, but again from an evolutionary standpoint I can't make sense of the idea that misogyny (common in basically every culture) would lead to extensive homosexuality (not common in every culture)

Oh well

My EVEN MORE CENSORED bit from before. Spartan society was so....[grasps for an appropriate and non-contraversial word and fails] that a bride on her wedding night was expected to dress as a man and await her husband lying on her face. On the floor.

Anyway the misogyny=institutionalised homosexuality bit doesn't take into account of the fact that whereas sexism was pretty much uniform throughout greece, the "Gayness Quotant" (GQ  ) varied from region to region. Sparta was pretty well at the top of the GQ, Thessaly near the bottom, Athens pretty much in the middle.

[dermal_plating]

Sex isn't just about reproduction, its a social thing. So from an evolutionary standpoint having sex with others of the same gender can improve bonds within a social environment.

[shadow_archmagi]

Actually, I thought spartans didn't hunt the wildlife as have pig farms, so they could drink the pigbloodvinegar brew they made.

[MMad]

I guess, but again from an evolutionary standpoint I can't make sense of the idea that misogyny (common in basically every culture) would lead to extensive homosexuality (not common in every culture)

Heh. Very many peculiarities of human societies makes precious little sense from an evolutionary standpoint. Take DF or this forum, for example - It sure doesn't help to get me laid, but I enjoy it nevertheless.

[lijacote]

Oh wow, I just had to register. Just because there's people saying being gay doesn't make sense.

How do you know it doesn't make sense? For all we know we're just as delusional about homosexuality as the people before us were about the sun. And really, grow up. Some men buggering each other doesn't hurt anyone. Other than maybe themselves. On top of that, social bonds were mentioned. These are pretty important for humans. Soldiers liking each other is generally a good thing isn't it? Oh yeah, don't ask don't tell etc but that's really a pile of manure. Does anyone honestly think that a gay man won't shoot another man? Because straight soldiers never shoot women.

/endrant

[Tormy]

Eh, what the hell is going on in this thread? Yet another derailed topic. This subforum and this topic is not the best place to argue about homosexuality. [Perhaps some of you people would like to visit the various nonsense subforum to talk about this?] 

[RPB]

Since the thread is well and truly derailed anyhow...

Homosexuality is not an evolutionary aberration by any means. Evolutionary pressures do not blindly work to maximize the chances of any given individual to propagate; it is perfectly normal for traits to be selected that lead an individual to sacrifice personal reproductive opportunities in order to increase the success of other members of their social group. Also realize that "success" is not really measured by the sheer number of offspring produced; it's the number of offspring that survive long enough to propagate that counts. Having a small proportion of adults refrain from mating means the group has fewer offspring and thus spends fewer resources raising children while still benefiting from the resources contributed by the non-mating adults, thereby increasing survival rates for the group as a whole (and children in particular).

It has yet to be conclusively demonstrated if this effect has any bearing on homosexuality in humans, but it is certainly plausible.

[Marlowe]

But not from a social standpoint, considering that Greeks tended to think that women were so unintelligent they might as well be animals. Sexism was so rife in their culture that homosexuality was seen as the only way to have a proper romantic relationship

But just to confuse us further; apparently Spartan women actually had HIGHER status than in most Greek states.

Thinking of the Helot/Spartiate relationship. It's actually much more complicated and at the same time much more simple than enslavement. What happens is that every year, the Spartans go to war with the Helots (who are kept in a state where they don't have the weapons or unity to put up TOO much of a fight), kill as many as possible and steal their stuff. Occasionally the Helots win, which is highly embarrassing. Statue-run banditry, with the complication that the Helots are the "property" of the Spartans to start with. Confused? Me too.

You can't do this with Dwarves. You can treat certain Dwarves like slime, but you can't turn them hostile en masse to be turned into training fodder and cattle.

Try starting near a Goblin fortress, and try turning THEM into your Helots. Apparently they start off friendly. See how long that lasts.

[Dr. Melon]

Also, you'll need to increase the default pop cap by 50%

Hehe, so there's 300.

[Marlowe]

How would you work in the 700 Thespians who don't get a mention?

[Brendan]

Caravan guards who stop by in time for sieges?

[Deadmeat1471]

theres a roman mod which includes spartans, if your not using it already i suggest looking in the mod forum quickly and finding it, would improve your spartan fort.