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[Teeto_K]

Kind of silly to become a champion by sparring.

Finally, I know it's been said by others, but I'd rather that sparring alone couldn't make dwarves Legendary.  I think the highest skill ranks should be reserved for champions that have proven themselves in actual combat.

I disagree, and strongly. The world (our, REAL world) is full of legendary champions who have never engaged in combat that wouldn't be called "sparring" or "practice".

Martial Arts Black Belts. Olympic Wrestlers. Weapons users of various disciplines. Soldiers even, who've trained extensively, but never seen action. Marksmen, Archers. Going out and actually killing someone isn't a magic panacea that confers skill, despite the insistence of video games to the contrary.

Though warriors of such calibur ARE rare, they are rare not because sparring is ineffective, but rather, because it takes SERIOUS dedication to achieve such levels of skills. The ability to devote yourself full time to the pursuit. Partners of similar calibur to train with. Teachers of even greater skill to learn from.

Reminds me of my dwarven military.

[Efun]

Sparring deaths weeds out the weak.... champions-to-be need to kill weaker dwarves to weed out the stupid that just steal kills in real combat

[Bromor Neckbeard]

Teeto_K, that's a fine post and you make some good points, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you some more. Please don't take this the wrong way, I just respectfully don't agree with all your points.

The world (our, REAL world) is full of legendary champions who have never engaged in combat that wouldn't be called "sparring" or "practice".

Martial Arts Black Belts. Olympic Wrestlers.

See, but "sparring" and "practice" is distinctly different from actual competition, where the other guy is trying as hard as he can to beat your head in or twist your limbs off.  Full-contact sparring is nowhere near the same as actual competiton.  Can a boxer, any boxer, really be called "Legendary" if he never sets foot in a ring for an actual match?  I don't think so.

Weapons users of various disciplines. Soldiers even, who've trained extensively, but never seen action. Marksmen, Archers. Going out and actually killing someone isn't a magic panacea that confers skill, despite the insistence of video games to the contrary.

I'm not thinking of "you're not a true warrior until you've actually killed someone" so much as, "you're not a true warrior until you've faced actual combat, the thought of the enemy really trying to kill you and they WILL if you don't get them first".  To use the parlance of a thousand Vietnam accounts, it's the difference between the "F.N.G." and the grizzled veteran with the "thousand-yard stare".  No matter how much training you have, you don't know for sure how you can handle the terror and chaos of real combat until you have really experienced it.

Though warriors of such calibur ARE rare, they are rare not because sparring is ineffective, but rather, because it takes SERIOUS dedication to achieve such levels of skills. The ability to devote yourself full time to the pursuit. Partners of similar calibur to train with. Teachers of even greater skill to learn from.  Reminds me of my dwarven military.

Hey, that's a great paragraph, but your dwarven military must differ from mine.  They're effective enough, but I can't call them dedicated.  Mine are a bunch of guzzling bums who are just as likely to nip off for a nap or a pint while the goblin hordes are pouring into the fortress as they are to stand and fight the invaders.  They work at improving their skills full time, except for when they're sleeping until noon or abandoning their posts for a quick bite to eat.

[Pilsu]

Good luck finding real life legendary champions without field experience when it comes to the military

Yeah, real combat doesn't necessarily teach the skills themselves but it's what separates the self-important rookies from the veterans. Seeing how insanely deadly well equipped champions are, it'd be nice if they required some real experience

[Maggarg - Eater of chicke]

I remember the training things on dungeon keeper.
Great big spinning mace things :3

[Tormy]

Kind of silly to become a champion by sparring.

I disagree, and strongly.

I don't disagree with him. Training dummies should be limited regarding gaining experience. Like I've said it should be maxed at ~"Proficient" level. After that, dwarves should only gain experience if they are sparring or fighting in battles.

[Deadmeat1471]

Agree with above, theres more to battle than practicing swinging an axe at a dummy, but best answer i think would be a safety sword rather than dummy - dummy is shit practice, trainer sword would be better for sparring non-lethelly up to proficient.

[Randy Gnoman]

Two words:  zombie deer.

They're almost totally harmless, and since you can pretty much tear off every limb and rip out every internal organ without killing them, they can provide an obscene amount of wrestling experience.  Basically, you dwarf will sit there fighting the thing uninterrupted until he manages to rip its head off, and almost always comes away entirely uninjured.  The trouble is that they travel in packs, so if your dwarf over-exerts himself on the first zombie deer, or has no backup, there's a very real possibility that it's friends will... I don't know... nuzzle him to death, or whatever it is they do.

[Footkerchief]

However, there is one significant mistake that Dwarven Fortress makes in sparring injuries.  In dwarven fortress, the more experienced fighters usually injure the inexperienced ones.

Huh?  No, this isn't true.  Inexperienced dwarves have a higher chance of accidentally turning a sparring hit into a real hit.

[Guy Montag]

I think being able to easily designate training weapons is in the works. Dwarves just automatically fetch a silver or wooden weapon (if they are available) when they train, and put it back when they are done. There would be alot less training accidents if they are just beating the mess out of each other with sticks.

Also, yeah, I agree the gains made by sparring should reach a point of dimishing returns. I don't think some random Lye Maker should ever become a ledgendary hammer dwarf because he was in the army for 2 years. Sparring should just train up to a certain level quickly, then it becomes very slow.

Or make it so that a dwarf has to have a certain, random number of kills to "unlock" the higher skill levels. Some concripted peasent that single-handedly cut down 30 goblins should have no problem reaching High Master if he decided to spar to that level.

Anyways, combat should be the only thing that takes you to Legendary. Soldiers learn how to survive on the battlefeild, not in garrison, and thats usually the first thing you'd tell an FNG is "Forget everything you learned in garrison" You could sit in your backyard and shoot a a metric ton of bullets, you might be a pretty accurate shot, but that by no means makes you a competant soldier. An Olympic shooter isn't a combatant, and vise versa.

[Earthquake Damage]

That combat experience should translate into some other skill, not the weapon skill.  If you can hit a wart on a mule's ass at 10 km, you're a legendary marksman.  Period.  That does not make you a good soldier, but that's because good soldiers possess other skills as well (that and nerves of steel).

[Spoggerific]

That combat experience should translate into some other skill, not the weapon skill.  If you can hit a wart on a mule's ass at 10 km, you're a legendary marksman.  Period.  That does not make you a good soldier, but that's because good soldiers possess other skills as well (that and nerves of steel).

Perhaps there could be other skills, or maybe personality traits, that translate into military service. Things like "Urist McChampion doesn't care about anything anymore." may mean that he'd be a better leader, and less likely to break down if squadmembers die, or he wouldn't be as squeamish about sticking his sword in a bag of meat a goblin.

[(name here)]

"doesn't care about anything anymore" is pretty easy to get. you just have to get some squadmates and random other dwarves slaughtered in front of you.

[Footkerchief]

"doesn't care about anything anymore" is pretty easy to get. you just have to get some squadmates and random other dwarves slaughtered in front of you.

I think they can get it just by seeing enemies die.

[Pilsu]

Killing wild animals quickly hardens your dwarves. Especially if they're -men

I know how that sounds