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[Spoggerific]

We all know about sparring and its disadvantages (slaughterd dwarves abound; I've lost about 10 in my current fort, and it's halfway through my fourth year. No trees = no charcoal = no armor). This got me to thinking... perhaps other ways to train military skills could be implemented, besides sparring. I posted this here instead of suggestions because I don't have many ideas yet, and I wanted some input from other people before making a topic.

My ideas were fairly simple:

Training dummies could be implemented. Dummies would have various advantages and disadvantages over sparring, such as:

• No chance of injuries from just hitting a dummy
• Always available - your dwarves don't have to go search for a sparring partner
• You could always use your best weapon on the dummy and not have to worry about sparring-only weapons
• However, you can only learn so much from whacking at a immobile target. Perhaps a dwarf could only get up to no-label or competent in their weapon skill of choice, before they have to move on to some other method
• Eventually they would get degraded from use, and have to be replaced. Wooden ones would break faster, stone somewhat slowly, and metal would last a long time.
• You can only learn things about your weapon from a dummy - for learning how to use your shield or moving around in your armor, you're going to have to do some real sparring.

Able to carry two weapons: a sparring weapon and a combat weapon. This would be a rather simple change, and would carry all of the benefits of sparring with less risks. This has been suggested before.

Prisoner execution. Designate a cage full of prisoners as 'training stock'. When a dwarf wants to train, he and maybe a guard would walk over to the cage, yank out the prisoner, move to a barracks, and then the soldier-in-training would execute them. This has a couple drawbacks and advantages as well, such as:

• It would be like more like actual combat than sparring or dummies, and thus grant more experience.
• This could give you something to do with those prisoners.
• Perhaps you could set up an area, and dwarves with more aggressive personalities would get happy thoughts from watching the prisoners get executed.
• The main disadvantage would be keeping a steady supply of prisoners for your champions-to-be to use.

Along with those new ideas, you could have other general improvements such as being able to choose what skill level a dwarf stops training at. You don't want your champions to waste their time executing those precious prisoners, do you? Also, you could have marksdwarves train with their crossbow butts automatically, so you don't have to switch between hammer and crossbow weapons every now and then.


Thoughts? Comments? New ideas to add to the list? Post them! I'd like to see what other people have thought, or possibly what other people have already suggested and I've missed. I did a (very cursory) search of the suggestions before posting this, but I couldn't find much besides the "sparring weapons" idea.

[Slappy Moose]

I still think the best way to fix the sparring annoyances would be to just make sparring dwarves do no damage.

[Spoggerific]

I still think the best way to fix the sparring annoyances would be to just make sparring dwarves do no damage.

I disagree. This solution wouldn't be nearly as interesting or imaginative. There should be some disadvantages to sparring. It's realistic, and Fun if your dwarves put their lives in danger by training. If you want safe training, there should be some drawbacks of some kind.

[Derakon]

For what it's worth, you can always make armor out of leather. It's leaps and bounds better than being unarmored. Make shields first, then body armor, then helms, then boots. You should be able to get plenty of leather from trading and slaughtering tame animals; if you're still short, try hunting.

[ColonelTEE3]

Pump operating is a good conditioning technique for training dwarves, that and having them mine through fields of sandy loam. Or, ironically, having them update stock records for days on end... some how... makes them physically stronger... especially once they're legendary.

[Spoggerific]

Pump operating is a good conditioning technique for training dwarves, that and having them mine through fields of sandy loam. Or, ironically, having them update stock records for days on end... some how... makes them physically stronger... especially once they're legendary.

Yes, yes. That trains up their stats very easily, but I was concerned about weapon and armor usage. There is, sadly, no similar way to train up weapon and armor skills.

 I already have all of my forts with a large room with at least 10 pumps manually pumping nothing. I set all of my not-immediately-useful dwarves to pump and haul, and whenever I need a dwarf to be conscripted or set to another job, I just pick one of my pump operators for the job.

[beorn080]

If you don't mind a bit of cheating.

Take a GCS. Add Damblock of over 50, remove its internal organs, make it am extremely common wild animal, and remove its attacks. Capture one with a cage trap. Release it in a cage match with the dwarves you want to train. Profit.

[Spoggerific]

If you don't mind a bit of cheating.

Take a GCS. Add Damblock of over 50, remove its internal organs, make it am extremely common wild animal, and remove its attacks. Capture one with a cage trap. Release it in a cage match with the dwarves you want to train. Profit.

Well, see, I'm not looking for methods to do it myself - I have no problem finding some. I was looking for suggestions or ideas that someone could post, which I could then put in a thread in the suggestions forum. Afterwards, hopefully Toady would take a look and possibly implement them.

[Bromor Neckbeard]

I don't have nearly as much trouble with accidentally injuring my dwarves during sparring as a lot of people seem to.  Just giving them leather armor and wooden shields (easily done in the first year in almost any fort) and making them train in wrestling up to Competent or Skilled reduces injuries from weapon training to an almost insignificant amount.  If wooden weapons can't be easily acquired, silver or copper weapons are almost as good for sparring, but I hardly even use those if iron is available.

Despite my relative good luck with this, I think injuries should be as common as they are already.  I mean, people get hurt in real life full-contact sparring all the time.  I have personally gotten a broken nose, a couple of lung and kidney bruises, and a dislocated jaw from boxing with my friends in the past two years, and it would be stretching the truth to call us even Proficient.  This was cold sober and while wearing boxing gloves, mind you.  Now, if we were drinking gallons of rum and swinging at each other with axes, I'd expect MORE injuries than I see in DF.  Booze and pointy metal things just don't go together.

I think in my entire DF career, I've had a grand total of two sparring deaths and maybe three more serious injuries, out of probably a hundred dwarves whose primary weapons were melee.  Just don't give them stone swords or metal spears unless they're in full steel armor or better.

Along with those new ideas, you could have other general improvements such as being able to choose what skill level a dwarf stops training at. You don't want your champions to waste their time executing those precious prisoners, do you? Also, you could have marksdwarves train with their crossbow butts automatically, so you don't have to switch between hammer and crossbow weapons every now and then.

I support these ideas wholeheartedly, I hope both of them get added in the Army Arc.  Personally I'd like to see using a crossbow in melee changed to its own skill, and not use the hammer skill.  I definitely second the idea of being able to tell your soldiers "train in wrestling until you get Skilled, then stop training until I assign you a weapon" or "stop wasting wooden bolts once you become a Legendary Marksdwarf".

Finally, I know it's been said by others, but I'd rather that sparring alone couldn't make dwarves Legendary.  I think the highest skill ranks should be reserved for champions that have proven themselves in actual combat.

[Deadmeat1471]

Its great how it is, i think some trasining for strength agility might be good etc but sparring is a keeper. just build some armor for your 'warfs :/ i use bone weps and armour for training and 'swarm' defence  (woodcutters/miners)

[HungryHobo]

Myself I modded in a training dummy- someone on the modding board threw it together for me.
no attacks, lots of health and lots of damblock. they can wrestle it or stab it with pointy things for hours without stopping. the only problem is that it's hard to get them to leave the pit for breaks.

[Pilsu]

Dummy getting them above basic would be nice

Sparring should be capped below permanent military status imo. Kind of silly to become a champion by sparring. To facilitate the change, ranged weapons would need to be changed and enemies that die from getting launched should net kills properly

You don't exactly need everyone to be champions to defend a fort so it should work. Depends, the cap for elite status might have to be raised

[Tormy]

We all know about sparring and its disadvantages (slaughterd dwarves abound; I've lost about 10 in my current fort, and it's halfway through my fourth year. No trees = no charcoal = no armor). This got me to thinking... perhaps other ways to train military skills could be implemented, besides sparring. I posted this here instead of suggestions because I don't have many ideas yet, and I wanted some input from other people before making a topic.

My ideas were fairly simple:

Training dummies could be implemented. Dummies would have various advantages and disadvantages over sparring, such as:

• No chance of injuries from just hitting a dummy
• Always available - your dwarves don't have to go search for a sparring partner
• You could always use your best weapon on the dummy and not have to worry about sparring-only weapons
• However, you can only learn so much from whacking at a immobile target. Perhaps a dwarf could only get up to no-label or competent in their weapon skill of choice, before they have to move on to some other method
• Eventually they would get degraded from use, and have to be replaced. Wooden ones would break faster, stone somewhat slowly, and metal would last a long time.
• You can only learn things about your weapon from a dummy - for learning how to use your shield or moving around in your armor, you're going to have to do some real sparring.

Able to carry two weapons: a sparring weapon and a combat weapon. This would be a rather simple change, and would carry all of the benefits of sparring with less risks. This has been suggested before.

Prisoner execution. Designate a cage full of prisoners as 'training stock'. When a dwarf wants to train, he and maybe a guard would walk over to the cage, yank out the prisoner, move to a barracks, and then the soldier-in-training would execute them. This has a couple drawbacks and advantages as well, such as:

• It would be like more like actual combat than sparring or dummies, and thus grant more experience.
• This could give you something to do with those prisoners.
• Perhaps you could set up an area, and dwarves with more aggressive personalities would get happy thoughts from watching the prisoners get executed.
• The main disadvantage would be keeping a steady supply of prisoners for your champions-to-be to use.

Along with those new ideas, you could have other general improvements such as being able to choose what skill level a dwarf stops training at. You don't want your champions to waste their time executing those precious prisoners, do you? Also, you could have marksdwarves train with their crossbow butts automatically, so you don't have to switch between hammer and crossbow weapons every now and then.


Thoughts? Comments? New ideas to add to the list? Post them! I'd like to see what other people have thought, or possibly what other people have already suggested and I've missed. I did a (very cursory) search of the suggestions before posting this, but I couldn't find much besides the "sparring weapons" idea.

Training dummies were suggested many times before. In fact I think that I've suggested it a long time ago firstly. 
Yes I agree, training dummies should be implemented when possible. However -as you've suggested also- it should only be useful for minor training. Let's say dwarves could train their skills up to "Proficient" while practicing on dummies.

[Star Weaver]

Dwarven Tai Chi - The Art of Moving In Armor.

Or something. To get them up the first couple ranks, maybe to "no adjective".

[Battlecat]

Good ideas all around for improving sparring.  From my experience in Taekwondo, a punching bag or equivalent item (such as a training dummy) is great for getting basic combat techniques down without any significant risk of injury.  However, as you've stated, you can only learn so much on a punching bag, since a live opponent will be moving, and fighting back. 

However, there is one significant mistake that Dwarven Fortress makes in sparring injuries.  In dwarven fortress, the more experienced fighters usually injure the inexperienced ones.  In real life, the most dangerous opponents in sparring are the most inexperienced fighters, not the experts.  As a black belt in Taekwondo I much prefered fighting other black belts vs a white belt since I was less likely to get injured.  An expert in any combat form is capable of separating speed and technique from the strength and power.  I've observed that experienced fighters are actually better at pulling their punches than inexperienced fighters. 

Additionally, an inexperienced fighter is more likely to mess up and hit you in an area declared off limits for friendly sparring.  I've taken feet to the face and groin from fighters who were inexperienced and messed up their technique. 

Finally, there is one other source of injury.  Despite all the training in the world, one small mistake can cause a sigificant injury.  In a sparring session I made a misstep and my knee twisted seriously damaging a ligament.  I couldn't walk for a month and my knee still isn't strong enough after 15 years to go back to martial arts safely.  The chance of this type of injury during sparring should be extremely small, but it does exist. 

Anyhow, just my thoughts.