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[Demonic Gophers]

They also manage to build obsidian towers, which must take a certain amount of intelligence.  Seems to me that goblins should be fairly cunning.

[Belteshazzar]

If I remember Tolkien's goblins had a thing for gunpowder and machinery. In fact by world standards goblins seem to have the most 'advanced' society aside from the demons. They recognize and utilize the strengths of various races through extensive recruitment, ubiquitous steel usage, comfortable silk clothing, and a frighteningly liberal criminal code.

[Rawl]

When I refer to goblins not being smart, remember that I'm more or less basing it of the DF stereotypes more than anything. Heck we now that the dwarves can be rather smart in this game, from being the only race that uses steel, to even utilizing water wheels. However we know that dwarves will do stupid things at the drop of a sock.

Everyone's views of the DF races are mostly shaped by the stories they hear and the things they see in the game. From my experiences Kobolds and Humans are some of the smartest.

Slightly more on the subject of digging. Cave ins: in my time playing DF anytime there is a cave in rocks fall from the ceiling as upper layers collapse into the lower, however I've yet to see any of the stone actually FILL the places they fell into. I would love to see the halls being physically blocked and have to be dug out again.

[Neonivek]

For the most part Dwarves are the most developed race out of the four main ones (I consider Kobolds to be a minor race) in terms of how much work Toady put into them. That is however only because you play Dwarves, Dwarves in Adventure mode and sieges are not so impressive.

On a side note: Goblins use all materials and are the only race to use Adamantine naturally

[Rakeela]

I like the idea that most digging creatures and enemies should focus on digging through soil, not through rock.  And rocks should have variable hardnesses.

By the way, I never saw 'smoothing' a wall as merely getting rid of rough edges and jagged spots.  I always imagined that it was more like cutting into and resurfacing the first several inches of it so as to get a uniform and far sturdier wall.  That's why it trains engraving and why a smoothed aquifer wall stops leaking.  If a constructed wall is going to slow down diggers, a smoothed wall should too.

EDIT:  Also, not because it has logical justification, but because it would make the game significantly less frustrating...  A masterfully engraved wall should be far harder than others, causing diggers to prefer to dig through the merely 'superiorly engraved' wall right next to it.  If you need to justify it, call it protective runes engraved by the engraver or something.  Artifacts are expected to have magical powers eventually, right?  This is a lesser version of that.

[Neonivek]

Well if you don't want enemies digging through your engraved walls then perhaps you should construct them out of harder materials such as Bronze or Iron. (you know, once you can Engrave Constructions)

Or make sure they are out of the way

[Rakeela]

I typically only engrave interior walls, so it's not a real danger for me.  Any wall I engrave has at least two layers of smoothed or constructed walls between it and the raw stone outside it.

[Iden]

Three things.

There's a difference between "Digging through Stone" and "Taking down Walls". Right now, you can't dig through walls, only stone. You have to take down a wall. Now presumably if you bashed down a wall, it would be a heck of a lot faster.. assuming you had the raw power to do it. It would be harder to start digging through a smooth wall because there isn't a good place to start taking out chunks of rock. But once started, it would prove faster to plow through it than it would be to take each block down. Therefore, it should be harder to dig through a smooth wall than a rough-hewn wall, yet easier to dig through a smooth/constructed wall than to manually take apart said wall.

Tolkien's Goblins were actually intelligent creatures. If you read enough into early Middle-Earth lore (The Silmarillion, for example) you will understand why I say this. They were just lazy, overworked, and oppressed. They were timid creatures in the presence of power. A power which was always overshadowing them at any particular moment, and never allowed to grow on their own. On their own, Tolkien goblins would have probably prospered.. but they were always pushed back down and used as tools. Also, it was Saruman who helped developed other advanced things (gunpowder), not the goblins themselves. Technically, Goblins and Orcs may be considered the same thing (though this is sometimes of debate.. perhaps just different subraces of the same race). Do note, Saruman's big old army of Uruk-Hai are not the same thing.

Digging through soil, I suppose, is something I implied. It would be easier to dig through soil. Pathfinding the "shortest/easiest presumed tunnel-to-be-made to get inside a fort" shouldn't take into account stone layers unless absolutely necessary. Siege Craft should be considered easier than digging through stone, imo. My counter-digger defense idea of Moats "as deep as the soil goes" was intended to make digging in much harder (and dangerous) for your enemies. Soil should always be first option, and stone should be a more "desperate measure to get inside [unless we have engineers or dwarves digging for us]."

[Tormy]

Tolkien's Goblins were actually intelligent creatures.

No doubt, they were using trolls and let those do the hard job afterall. 

[Random832]

Dwarves have an advantage digging, but goblins clearly get the masses of iron, flux, and obsidian the use to build their stuff somewhere, so they must dig to some extent. getting a certin

I think goblins may well be close to being dwarves' equals in terms of digging - some stuff from june on dev_now implies that both dwarves and goblins use tunnels instead of roads for connection between their sites.

[Iden]

I think goblins may well be close to being dwarves' equals in terms of digging - some stuff from june on dev_now implies that both dwarves and goblins use tunnels instead of roads for connection between their sites.

Although you make a very good point, I don't think it's necessarily a correct assumption. They may have experience digging, but I think the quantity factor does come up here. Are they as good as dwarves are at mining? Or do the goblins simply have greater numbers [than the dwarves' would] down there mining out the tunnel, to make up for a lack of mining skill?

Just because I dance it doesn't mean I'm any good at it. Just because the goblins dig tunnels, doesn't make them a dwarves equal. Though this does allow some room for arguement, it still doesn't implicitly make them expert miners.

But Jersey*. I don't think we can truly know the answer to this without more information. Toady would need to share with us precisely how he intended goblins to be. At least as far as digging proficiency goes.


* If New York was the point, then New Jersey would be beside the point. But Jersey: But that's beside the point.

[Tormy]

Ladies and gentlemen! Let me introduce to you the world famous:



 

PS.
Take a look at the card's description!
"Sacrficie Goblin Digging Team: Destroy target Wall."

Holy cow, this could work in DF even. 

[Draco18s]

PS.
Take a look at the card's description!
"Sacrficie Goblin Digging Team: Destroy target Wall."

That's the rules text.  There's no "description" except maybe the flavor text.

Edit: unintentional necro.  I was looking for Belteshazzar's sig and then ended up reading the thread.

[Silverionmox]

We might as well gather some data here.. does a raised thread still have a soul?

[Iden]

We might as well gather some data here.. does a raised thread still have a soul?

Apologies to silverion. Thought some sort of quip was going as I had my hands both in this thread, and in the undead thread he refers to. -.- Must have been paranoid that day, sorry. ^^;

But seriously. I don't think you could say a town has a soul. The people in the town may in fact each have souls, but the town itself does not.

Though.. interestingly enough, if the town were under siege, the people might rise up together, and give life to their town. They might rise up in might, and band together, as if one soul. The town itself would rise up to defeat it's enemies.

So I suppose under certain circumstances, if used properly, it might be possible.