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[Osmosis Jones]

[Enter] key is your friend!

Mantlets would be awesome. Personally though, I think goblin diggers should be just whatever slaves the gobbos have handy, whether goblin, dwarven or otherwise, rather than a dedicated unit. The gobs have more than enough iron to equip 'em with picks as well.
It would give a purpose to all those lashers they seem to have, too (seriously, I have never seen a lasher kill more than a fisherdwarf, wrestlers do more damage). Slavedrivers ftw!

[Neonivek]

Well the differences between the Civilisations digging abilities and tactics could differ according to their digging ability.

Humans sapping walls or digging a short tunnel under them wouldn't be so far fetched. (Humans do have a history of Tunnel Warfare). Humans are a "Warrior" race according to Toady if I remember correctly.

Elves are an interesting case and they can institute such a diverse array of strategies I think it should depend on what resources they have on hand even more so then the other races.

Goblins should take advantage of their ability to use the strength of the other races like they currently somewhat do. (With Trolls and stuff). Thus if they have a few Dwarves a nice digging plan could be in order.

[winner]

I have reformatted it for you because I rather like Rawl's ideas.

Okay I think it's been stated in this thread earlier.
Large sieges, in which the attackers have tried to breach walls and such, would try to tunnel in. This doesn't meen 8 zlevels down or try for "from the bottom up". They would try to dig just enough to get under Outer walls or under the river. Allow them to catch the idea of damp stone=bad, warm stone=death. Logically, if you were an attacker, you would want to get as close as possible and dig as little as possible when trying to break in.

Goblin Trolls, should bring 5 diggers (note NOT miners as that would imply greater skill) for a 50+ size siege. This would give reason once better squad control is adapted and possible if the player could set ambushers of their own (dwarves that lay in wait hidden while waiting for enemies to pass by and let then let the axe fall).

Equipment should also be taken into account. Steel items seem to be used only by dwarves so with steel they could dig through any stone. (Adamantite would take MORE time than others but is possible) and an Adamantine pick would slice through the earth like a knife through butter. so you could line your rooms with variant materials to slow or downright stop digging. When a digger runs into a wall what does he do? Send the Trolls/battering rams/Trents in to tear them down.

And what about Kobolds? well lets say one makes it deep into your fort and learns of where the Treasury is and then makes it out ALIVE well using the stolen goodies= how bad Kobolds get let's say they steal a LOT and know where this room is they try to dig there. Once Hidden doors and secret passages are used they make their own... Right to your treasury of adamantite spittoons. Of course if they don't have steel pickaxes how deep they could go would be limited, but if they have successfully procured some you might get an open season!

Once Siegers have already started using a tunnel they try to add to that one until it becomes completely useless (you use a flood trap on it once they know not to use it ever again. They might want to protect these tunnels so smarter races like Humans might set up their OWN traps to make you think twice about following them down their tunnels, giving your engineers a new task: disable traps. Same goes for the enemy (smarter races at least) for them being able to dismantle your traps. Siegers using Mantlets and such might be an interesting add to. Think you can abuse Crossbow users to your hearts content? how about a small protective wall coming down the field/hall that is defending a small group of enemies until they can solve the dwarven crossbow problems.... OH THE POSSIBILITIES!!!!   

[Warlord255]

I do agree that digging doesn't need to be the be-all-end-all for harder sieges. I'd rather see some more creative means first - particularly MORE GOBLINS.

Seriously, I'm just a bloodthirsty bastard. I want to make things die. GIVE US MORE GOBLINS.

[Neonivek]

True by all means there should be other ways to get inside a fortress, even get inside without detection, then simply digging.

But I am not sure if I want Digging to be off limits to any civilisation except those who would be opposed. (I don't think it is that Elves are against digging, I think it is that they are against killing grass to get to the ground)

But yes, certainly Digging for some should be an unpopular, but not unheard of, option. (Afterall a Human Catapult Squad is certainly more dangerous and cool then a Sap squad)

[Tormy]

Well the differences between the Civilisations digging abilities and tactics could differ according to their digging ability.

I agree of course. Not all civs should have as fast diggers as the dwarven legendary miners.
However some new fun stuff: Civs could use slaves/prisoners/mercenaries in sieges. Like dwarves/specific creatures with decent digging skills for example. Let those do the digging job. 

[Rawl]

So some creative ideas for not just digging are the oft' mentioned siege towers, ladders, pit filling, bridge building, as for more stealthy options: grappling hooks, and other such climbing gear, and once integrated things like elves using eagles to fly over the walls.

Back on the subject of digging, no digging shouldn't be the be all end all of sieges, but the idea that a siege has that option against opponents does allow the player to try and be more creative over the current "my one tile moat can thwart any siege". Yes players don't HAVE to play like this, if they want it to be harder don't dig moats, but players should be rewarded for being creativity and realistic.

Plus digging doesn't have to sieging only. The idea of random tunneling creatures accidentally digging into my Hammerer's dinning hall and watching as he dispenses Dwarven justice all over the head in an amusing game of 'whack a mole' because the dug in right behind his chair. Once more though, just because a creature can dig doesn't mean that any creature should be able to dig through any object. Walls (Constructed walls, not smoothed) could be defense against the average digger, but more "down deep" creatures like Antmen you would want to find a stone that they can't dig through. If stone don't work time to pull out Glass Blocks and Metal. Yes Elephants could dig (as mentioned in an earlier post) but they wouldn't be able to burrow through obsidian stone.

A system of tokens could be used to define how they dig, something like "sifter" would be more akin to things like deer, Elephants and other atypical diggers. "Burrower" would denote something along the lines of moles that could dig through heartier soils and mild rocks (however they would avoid tougher stone like most animals would). "digger" for more dedicated subterranean life forms like the Antmen, and possibly Kobolds (do Kobolds use picks?). Which brings us to the last token: "Miners" tried and true these are the kinds that will use picks and tools to get the job done. Effectiveness is determined by skill and equipment. Numbers beside their tag (for the non-miner tokens) could be used to identify more specificly how "deep" they can go and through which type of layers and particular stones they can dig through..

[iambap]

I really like this idea, especially with regard to sieges. I didn't see it in the voting area, so I added it (look for sapping).  If you like this idea, please vote.

[irmo]

Regarding elves: What they ought to do, instead of digging[1], is plant trees near your fortress and use their elven hoodoo to send bigass tree roots bursting through your walls. This would wreck the place but not actually let them in. (The holes in your walls are full of tree root, and the elves can't dig the roots out without hurting the tree, so they don't.) This fits with the elven way of battle, which is to stand back and snipe instead of actually invading.


[1] The problem isn't harming the grass, it's being out of the sun. This is also why they don't occupy your fortress. They don't want your stinking hole in the ground, they just want nature to reclaim it.

[Joutilas]

Another way to approach sieges - subterfuge.

Your fortress gets hundreds of immigrants. Goblins can abduct and raise dwarfs as thier own...

"A vile force of dwarkness has appeared!"

and

"Your gates are brought open by treachery from within!"

Now that would be some FUN

[Iden]

"tl;dr ": Lots of feedback on recent posts, and more ideas. I know: it's huge. Apologies and thank you for putting up with me. 

-> All in all <- The majority of the things discussed in this thread, in my opinion, should definitely be considered to be uncommon, if not rare happenings. This means that they should, by no means, happen during every raid, or (if you happen to be lucky or careful), that they should not happen at all. The possibility of it occuring though, would certainly add to the game.

So some creative ideas for not just digging are the oft' mentioned siege towers, ladders, pit filling, bridge building, as for more stealthy options: grappling hooks, and other such climbing gear, and once integrated things like elves using eagles to fly over the walls.

In general, I loved your post.
Some good feedback, and also more good suggestions.

Grappling hooks would be an awesome idea for highly trained units arriving from a major civ that's really pissed at you. This should certainly be impossibly rare, but has potential for small strike squads trying to stealth in. Maybe even snatchers! (if your goblin civs are large enough and have other races mingled in with them)

Walls (Constructed walls, not smoothed) could be defense against the average digger...

Honestly though, I hate the idea of walls being "safe" from digging. Sure, it wouldn't be easy, but honestly, which would be harder? Digging through an inconceivably thick slab of pure, solid stone... or deconstructing a wall made with block and mortar?

When I think of a block wall, I think about a brick (and mortar) wall. You need something to help cement the wall in place. Though it may be difficult getting through mortar, as long as you have a sufficient tool it is possible. It'll take time: just as how it takes time to remove constructed walls. It should take a long time for someone to deconstruct a wall... but a simple built wall is not as immovable as the earth itself. If we're talking about realism and adding digging potential, we can't just say "oh, well built walls don't count." That's simply unreal.

...more "down deep" creatures like Antmen you would want to find a stone that they can't dig through.

Well.. if antmen dig without tools, there would have to be a limit. How dense the stone you can dig through should be somewhat dependent on your tools. You're not digging through terribly dense/hard rock with a less dense, semi-malleable pick. The pick would bend or break on such a hard surface. This should honestly go for any civ (save maybe dwarves).

The idea of random tunneling creatures accidentally digging into my Hammerer's dinning hall...

This brings up another awesome idea! The concept of warring civs sending in a forward expedition into your territory and attempting to establish fortifications and a main staging area for a forthcoming assault. Basically a group of soldiers and a group of engineers (peasants) who will dig and build fortifications. This would probably be a 'on the down-low' sort of thing, so you wouldn't get a raid warning.

They'd appear and begin building a staging area, while the soldiers protect them. If caught early, a counter-insurgency raid to push them out would be probably all that is needed to remove them. If un-noticed, this could be a potential problem. Different civs could handle this differently. Goblins could have underground "barracks", eventually growing into a fortified stone tower. Humans would dig moats, and chop trees to build wooden walls, eventually growing into a small fortified keep of sorts. This shouldn't be thrown around lightly, though. This should be major war-time tactics. You'd should really have to piss someone to warrant this.

...things like elves using eagles to fly over the walls.

Bloody awesome idea-- I love it! Too bad, in all honesty, it's far more controversial and way more hax than digging ever could be. Even if you pissed of another Dwarf Fort, these guys would be a lot worse. Come on, stealth elves jumping down off the backs of eagles to sneak in?! Man! What a marvelous idea! (...assuming you have above-ground gatehouses or moats that can be traversed in such a fashion).

I can't imagine what you'd do to piss anyone off that much to make them ride eagles over embattlements! But i'd really give my fort to see this happen!

Regarding elves: What they ought to do, instead of digging[1], is plant trees near your fortress and use their elven hoodoo to send bigass tree roots bursting through your walls. This would wreck the place but not actually let them in. (The holes in your walls are full of tree root, and the elves can't dig the roots out without hurting the tree, so they don't.) This fits with the elven way of battle, which is to stand back and snipe instead of actually invading.

I don't know about the tree roots. Eagles sound more fun, imo. Trees should take time to grow. I'm not fond of the magical 'hoodoo', personally.

Though... Ents, anyone?

Another way to approach sieges - subterfuge.

Well. If the previously kidnapped dwarves (which would take a whole heck of a lot of time to mature) were to come back when the raid appears, how would they get inside? At that point, a non-friendly/uncontrollable dwarf is a different symbol, isn't he? You just assume it's a friendly? Wouldn't someone notice "hey, I don't recognize him?" And if you've already closed your gates, how does he get in in the first place? Does he arrive early? Then let's take it back a step: wouldn't people notice an unfamiliar face that nobody knows after a while? Especially one who doesn't act as he should? (having been raised by goblins, there would be differences in the way he acts, and as he isn't your dwarf, he wouldn't always do as is asked)

An unhappy dwarf being a douche has more potential than this does, imo. Though I don't rather like the idea very much, it's certainly a pretty good one if handled right. Again this should be a very rare happening.

Moats

As for moats. Digging would perhaps encourage deeper moats around your fort, especially on dirt&soil levels. There should also be a % chance (based on race intelligence?) that enemy civs might "accidentally" dig through damp soil and flood their own tunnels. This could help counter-balance digging to some extent.

Improved Digging

Another good idea is if certain aspects of the Realistic Digging (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=24932.0) idea were implemented. Balancing against digging enemies would become much easier. It'd take longer to dig through stone (esp for enemies) as we've discussed. All you'd have to do is push a few enemies out of their tunnel, get a lever set up on a support, back out, and cave it in on them. After caving in a tunnel, you'd buy yourself more time to fortify the area! (Assuming they are considering digging again, if they have any diggers/engineers left) This also leaves open the option of someone screwing something up and accidentally caving in their own tunnels on themselves, and failing miserably in their attempt to get into your fort!

Eternal Voting

Thank you bap for adding this to the eternal voting list. Seriously, if you've read this far into this horrible post, doesn't that warrant a vote?

P.S. Sorry for all the bloody super-long posts, guys!
And thanks again for putting up with me! (assuming you did)

[Rawl]

...things like elves using eagles to fly over the walls.

Bloody awesome idea-- I love it! Too bad, in all honesty, it's far more controversial and way more hax than digging ever could be. Even if you pissed of another Dwarf Fort, these guys would be a lot worse. Come on, stealth elves jumping down off the backs of eagles to sneak in?! Man! What a marvelous idea! (...assuming you have above-ground gatehouses or moats that can be traversed in such a fashion).

I can't imagine what you'd do to piss anyone off that much to make them ride eagles over embattlements! But i'd really give my fort to see this happen!

If I remember correctly Toady made mention in the dev notes that things like eagles could be used as mounts, there is even a story by Three-Toe which prominently features this at the beginning. Toady has also stated things like flyers using their aerial abilities to their advantage such as dragons picking dwarves up flying up into the air and dropping them from deadly heights.

Since siege weapons and outright digging don't seem very Elvenly (unless they use the living trees or other burrowing animals like badgers to do their dirty work, no pun intended) alternative methods such as up and over as opposed to down and around seem to be more fitting. Once siege weapons can be used across variable z-levels (I don't think this has been implemented yet has it?) using ballistas to shred elven aeronaughts out of the sky with giant pointy logs would be very satisfying.

Plus the ideas that each race has it's own unique "unit" types really adds some flare. Goblins using troll "deconstructors" to tear down walls and doors, using slaves miners as "break through" to dig around or at least TO an area that they could use Trolls to breach, or if Toady so deems it, allow them to use piles of their dead friends to fill gaps and climb over obstacles. Humans using more traditional siege weapons like battering rams as "deconstructors", ballistas, trebuchets, mantlets, and the like. Maybe even a couple of fire pot throwers (nothing serious, they would only bring like 5 pots for a REALLY big siege. Additionally using sappers as their "break through" unit. Then Elves using more of nature against you were things like Trees as their "deconstructors" and things like eagles as the "break through" unit. Each would present it's own mechanics to over come and plan against. I know there not siegers, but the idea of a kobold with a lot of gal, a grapnel, some cal traps (to trip or stun any dwarven pursuers increasing his odds of making off with the booty), and a lust for Dwarven socks fills me with fuzzy feelings.

Just imagine what ticking of the other Dwarven civs could lead to though... (apologies for the derailment ranting)

[Joutilas]

Well. If the previously kidnapped dwarves (which would take a whole heck of a lot of time to mature) were to come back when the raid appears, how would they get inside? At that point, a non-friendly/uncontrollable dwarf is a different symbol, isn't he? You just assume it's a friendly? Wouldn't someone notice "hey, I don't recognize him?" And if you've already closed your gates, how does he get in in the first place? Does he arrive early? Then let's take it back a step: wouldn't people notice an unfamiliar face that nobody knows after a while? Especially one who doesn't act as he should? (having been raised by goblins, there would be differences in the way he acts, and as he isn't your dwarf, he wouldn't always do as is asked)

Obviously the dwarf doesn't have to come from your fortress' kidnapped kids. They would come with a group of normal migrants, pretending to be just another peasant/cheese maker.

The infiltrator dwarf would could give some cues about their true agenda in their profile, and also do some suspicious actions (ignoring work orders, spending breaks in odd places etc.). But as this would be happening at late game, it wouldn't be so easy to spot for those players who don't care so much about individual dwarfs.

Hard-core implementation of this would be that the dwarf comes years before the sieges, revealing their true face once you'd already got them to legendary level in skills (or in worst case, decked out with steel)

[Rawl]

Obviously the dwarf doesn't have to come from your fortress' kidnapped kids. They would come with a group of normal migrants, pretending to be just another peasant/cheese maker.

The infiltrator dwarf would could give some cues about their true agenda in their profile, and also do some suspicious actions (ignoring work orders, spending breaks in odd places etc.). But as this would be happening at late game, it wouldn't be so easy to spot for those players who don't care so much about individual dwarfs.

Hard-core implementation of this would be that the dwarf comes years before the sieges, revealing their true face once you'd already got them to legendary level in skills (or in worst case, decked out with steel)

I kinda like that. If I remember correctly The Dwarven King operates similarly doesn't he? He "hides" as a peasant, but if certain conditions are met he can "reveal" himself and take over ruling the fort. The same kind of operation could be used by the goblins. These kind of actions do seem to match some veiws on goblins, but also seem "too smart", easy right in solution: The kidnapped dwarf came up with the idea. That or possibly one of the kidnapped humans or elves.

Another neat approach for how goblins decide what to use is Who is ruling the civ at the moment? Demons would probably want blood to flow so subtlety might not be his first choice, However what if the leader happened to be one of those kidnapped children? Wouldn't the small time that they spent among there own people have impacted how They might try to get in?

[Granite26]

These kind of actions do seem to match some veiws on goblins, but also seem "too smart", easy right in solution: The kidnapped dwarf came up with the idea. That or possibly one of the kidnapped humans or elves.

I'll stop beating the dead horse when it stops trying to run away.

Note that goblins are the second best smithies in the current vanilla.  They are flavoured more like the old norse fey than the modern neo-Tolkien D&D CR 1/4 throw away enemies.  In short, in vanilla, they aren't dumb