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[Sabin Stargem]

I want to talk about Dragons, as they are in Dwarf Fortress right now, and what they possibly could in the future.  Right now, these beasts are not valuable in terms of killing them, nor are they as threatening as they could be.  While they will definitely achieve flight, I think there are other things to consider about dragons:  Lifecycles, and the impact that would have on their abilities.  I was considering Dragons in this game, comparing them to the ones in Castle of the Winds II.  In that game, dragon's can't fly.  But they didn't need to, since their breath weapons cover several squares, and their age determined the amount of coins they dropped, along with their overall power.

Something similar in Dwarf Fortress wouldn't be a bad idea, especially considering that world generation takes time into account, along with the wide variety of possible items in the game.  So here is a basic rundown:


Dragons should be given life cycles, and power accordingly.  Basically, the world spawns many weak hatchlings, which will be replaced by the appropriate lizard as historical figures are culled.  Furthermore, dragons are attracted to wealth that is based on jewelry, metals, and fine crafts.  Likes bedding on coins and such.  As time goes by, matured dragons will create hatchlings of their own, some of which will bother the player and other civilizations.  Below is each stage in the life cycle, in terms of abilities and tendencies for a dragon.


Hatchling
-No breath
-Slow
-Preys on anything (inexperienced)
-Weak hide, no scales.  Just like leather.
-Grounded
-One square in size.


Young
-Single tile breath
-Slow
-Preys on wildlife, but avoids sentients and megabeasts since it is smarter now.
-Thick but scaly hide.
-Grounded
-Two squares in size.


Mature
-Three tile breath in a line.
-Medium speed
-Preys on both wildlife and sentients, but avoids rival megabeasts.
-Scaly yet metal hide.
-Flight
-6 squares in size, two lines in a...line.


Old
-Nine tile breath, in a square.
-Medium Speed
-Preys on anything.
-Armored hide - metal, diamond, scales
-Flight
-Nine squares in size.
-Colossal headbutt (from the ground, to cause internal damage to fortress.)


Ancient
-Huge breath, 25 squares.
-Fast
-Preys on anything.
-Diamond, Metal, Adamantite, Scale hide of protection.
-Flight
-25 tiles in size.
-Colossal headbutt (from the ground, to cause internal damage to fortress.)


The hide of a dragon becomes increasingly tough with age, because the materials a dragon has bedded on would become part of it's hide.  Just like with Smog in the Hobbit.  Accordingly, the hide yields the appropriate base materials, and a number of dragon scales.  Hopefully, dragons in the style I have suggested would be suitably epic and rewarding foes in Dwarf Fortress, if accepted.

[Teldin]

I suggested something similar before (but not just for dragons, for any species). Essentially it's a simple tag in the raw text files that let you transform a creature into another creature when certain requirements are met (depending on the values in the tag). It works perfectly for things like lifecycles.

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=24740.0

[Neonivek]

For the most part... Multiple tile creatures are VERY difficult to obtain in the game... Since the game can't make a Giant D (though It can make a giant Green square with many little green squares)

[catpaw]

Well I actually loved my dragon tally soap to get the road value for the king.

1. I had hugh salvite roads in all 4 compass directions over the whole map: Road value 3000, needed 8000.

2. Hmmm I replace 2 streets to gold, 1 to fine pewter (all the valuable metalls i got around).. road value 4000.

3. I notice in the build menu in the hugh list of various stones, some dragon tally soap. I build a very short dragon tally soap, using the 4 pieces of soap i got: Road value: 47000 ... hmmm okay... got that.

[catpaw]

For the most part... Multiple tile creatures are VERY difficult to obtain in the game... Since the game can't make a Giant D (though It can make a giant Green square with many little green squares)

what is about the wagon of the caravan?

Isnt it a multiple tile """"creature""""".

[KaelGotDwarves]

For the most part... Multiple tile creatures are VERY difficult to obtain in the game... Since the game can't make a Giant D (though It can make a giant Green square with many little green squares)

what is about the wagon of the caravan?

Isnt it a multiple tile """"creature""""".

Someone posted in the bug forums a little while back that a wagon exploded because a sapling grew into a tree under it, and the traders ran in fear while items flew in all directions.

Given that, multiple tile dragons may be hard to implement right now.

[Sabin Stargem]

Hey, that could be quite nifty!  Just image it - a creature underground that sends tendrils up through the surface, spearing anyone unfortunate enough to stumble onto it.  This bug could be useful if reworked into the game, I wager.


Anyways, in reply to Teldin:  It is nice to know that the basic concept for multiple-form creatures has been suggested.  With that sort of thing, it can really open doors.  With some ideas on how to make the various forms of creatures interesting, this game would be well on it's way to being the next great roguelike to dethrone Nethack.  One of the HUGE things about Nethack is the variety of creatures it has, which is one of the things Dwarf Fortress will have to contend with in order to become the next King of Rogues - and your idea is one such way to achieve it, much like Undead Carp's solution to landlubbers.

[Duke 2.0]

Hey, that could be quite nifty!  Just image it - a creature underground that sends tendrils up through the surface, spearing anyone unfortunate enough to stumble onto it.  This bug could be useful if reworked into the game, I wager.

 

 Actually, that would be rather nifty. Perhaps as a plant? Although the utility of these things would go well if domesticated.

[Sabin Stargem]

It could also be quite the pest, too.  The roots could be crawling throughout the underground, then aggressively expand into the fortress until it hits solid floors and walls.  Kind of like the Purple Worm, but controllable.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Dragons are megabeasts....life cycle doesnt make much sense unless they can reproduce.

[catpaw]

Given that, multiple tile dragons may be hard to implement right now.

Oh thats "hard" 

function growtree() {
  if (multitilething_right_here()) {
       kill_tree(); // bad luck for the tree.
   }
}

[Idiom]

Actually, I rather like that Dragons are nothing special in DF.
More diversity is nice, but how about some more diversity with the rest of the mega beasts as well?

[Sabin Stargem]

The way I see it, the only megabeast that is of any real significance right now is the Bronze Colossus, because of it's regenerative properties coupled with toughness.  The other megabeasts are simply too weak, nor particularly special.  Which is why I am hoping megabeasts will become larger in the game, along with special features to differentiate them all.  The suggestion I put forth for Dragons is for making them properly tough, varied, and recurring throughout the ages.  In the Future Development section of Bay 12, it is mentioned that playing in the Age of Myth or entering Beowulfian settings.  Dragons that live out their lives and die off as their kind is exterminated would make sense in this context, and most likely can prove to be a good transition as the game situation develops.

Anyways, how do we improve the other creatures?

HYDRA:  A quick check at wikipedia tells me two things:  7 heads with regenerative power, and poison breath.  The most obvious application of having many long-necked and fanged heads is the reach and multiple attacks that can be performed.  Mix in poison breath, and you got damage that keeps on giving.  So the hydra is mostly a melee creature, since it can afford to have heads cut off, because it doesn't matter.  Since enemies can't be readily cauterized, I think the best way of handling the killing of the hydra is to have one head contain the 'brain', while all others don't.  If your dwarfs don't cut off the head with the brain, then the other heads will regenerate and the hydra will keep fighting.  Kind of like a colossus, with a shell game.

Basically, it is less tough than a Dragon or Colossus, but handles itself better in melee since it can bite and latch onto seven enemies with it's heads, and if poison gas is added in, then the potential of the hydra should improve a bit.  Basically, an Megabeast that specializes in removing enemies from play quickly.

Current Hydra:
-Cut off any head, and it will die.
-Can bite and latch onto enemies at 1d6 damage.

Suggested Hydra
-Destroy head with brain to kill it.  Incorrect heads will be regenerated.
-Can bite and latch onto seven separate targets, and cause poison damage.
-Ranged poison breath attack, for pesky archers.  Has to choose between attack nearby enemies or ones at range with poison breath.  Paralyzing variety.
-Takes up 9 tiles in size.
-Moderately regenerates body, but unlike colossus, it is vulnerable to ranged attacks and feels pain.

[Neonivek]

Well the Bronze Collossi have several more advantages...
1) Its regeneration (As Stated)
2) Its incredably high defensive capability (As stated)
3) Its lack of Organs (Major!)
4) No pain
5) No Exhaust

Anyhow... as for your Hydra I don't like the idea of "The correct head".

As a second statement: Your creatures get MUCH to large too quickly... Remember Elephants don't take up more then one tile and they are size 16 (only 4 off from Megabeasts)... The Whaleshark is exactly the same size as a Megabeast currently is and still takes one tile.

For me, any creature that rises above a Tile should be truely massive.

Also, by making them more then one tile large (or heck... more then 3x3 tiles) you make Megabeasts very difficult to attack other fortresses without digging into the earth.

------------------------

Another tangent... do we really need "Anchient" and older dragons? Can't we simulate a dragon getting more powerful according to how long it has lived by the fact that it has gained experience as time goes on?

I mean a dragon that has slain 100 people has to have improved somewhat...

[Steely Glint]

I mean a dragon that has slain 100 people has to have improved somewhat...

It may have improved stats, but after that many worldgen fights it's probably missing a leg or an eye, and will fall unconscious upon attacking the fortress.

As far as hydras go, I'd rather see them get some more dam block & regeneration and not die from decapitation unless all heads are destroyed. I don't know if it's possible, but it would be cool if they could make an attack with each intact head simultaneously distributed among multiple targets.

Once dragons can fly and are smart enough to strafe ground targets with fire they will be plenty deadly, especially if their breath starts forest fires and they are changed to not die from normal fire. A flying dragon can easily circumvent wall defenses and destroy windmills and other buildings exposed to the outdoors.