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Author Topic: Xenobiology! How do antmen work?  (Read 7275 times)

Warlord255

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Re: Xenobiology! How do antmen work?
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2008, 12:08:46 am »

On the subject of ants digging tunnels, I just thought of a HORRIFYING way to make underground stuff even more deadly:

Digging enemies.

"OH BY THE WAY SOME ANTMEN JUST TUNNELED INTO THE DINING HALL".

THIS HAS TO HAPPEN.
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Soadreqm

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Re: Xenobiology! How do antmen work?
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2008, 10:32:21 am »

Personally, I don't think antmen should be able to communicate with other races. It'd make them less alien and more mundane. Which I consider to be a bad thing. They don't have the mouths required to make complex sounds. And they live in the dark and have compound eyes, which should keep them from discovering the concepts of letters and images. And the antenna-handshake thingy is better anyway, so there's no evolutionary pressure to develop a language.

As for being "civilized", I'm not too sure about that either. In my opinion, individual antmen shouldn't actually think. Like the Borg. No abstract thinking done on the individual level, hive mind taking care of everything. PTTG? posted about how this actually works for ants, but I find it easier to visualize a single, alien overmind controlling all the individual units. It's functionally pretty similar, anyway.

Anyway, the magic arc is probably sceduled to happen before any extensive fleshing out of antman culture, so we can probably have wizards communicating with them telepathically.

Quote from: Warlord255
"OH BY THE WAY SOME ANTMEN JUST TUNNELED INTO THE DINING HALL".
Or maybe you'll accidentally tunnel into the hive, causing all the antmen go berserk. And then you'll be constantly ambushed, indoors, by large groups of warrior antmen who can dig past any walls you try to erect to protect yourself. Fun!
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Spoggerific

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Re: Xenobiology! How do antmen work?
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2008, 10:59:11 am »

Or maybe you'll accidentally tunnel into the hive, causing all the antmen go berserk. And then you'll be constantly ambushed, indoors, by large groups of warrior antmen who can dig past any walls you try to erect to protect yourself. Fun!
And then you could protect your walls by putting a layer of magma or water between them, like so:

Code: [Select]
WWWW
7777
WWWW
Where W = wall and 7 = liquid of your choice. I'd like to see them tunnel through that.
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Guy Montag

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Re: Xenobiology! How do antmen work?
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2008, 05:30:59 pm »

Yeah, I agree antmen should not be all that clever and write intricate poetry or anything, but they should still beable to communicate simple ideas to non-antmen. I don't want to see an ant-man caravan, or even one of the horrible bastards with their dimplomat following my mayor around to conduct a meeting. Well, the latter sounds kinda cool actually.

Anyways, if we are going to flesh them out to be anything besides another chasm monster to be smashed asunder, they should beable to communicate with outsiders, to some extent.

Engravings done by antmen might substitute for a written launguage... it is kinda a stretch of the imagination to think fucking ant-people are literate at all, but them scratching out a concepts like "On the wall is an image of a Antman and a Dwarf. The Antman is striking down the Dwarf".

With that in mind, I think they should be completely alien in thought. Like the zerg. Which is why I think 80% antman engravings should be utterly bizzare and random. "Here is an engraving of Cheese and a Hoary Marmot, The Hoary Marmot is Laughing" would make perfect sense in "ant-man culture" as a sophisticated jab at hive politics, but most engravings would be completely unintelligible to an outsider. Plus, they would be fun/interesting to look at anyways.

As for digging, I don't think Antmen should dig to attack, per se, but a "seige" from a antmen civ your at war with would involve them breaking a hole suddenly into your fortress and antmen pouring out, like somebody suggested somewhere on the forum...

You'd just get a message like "The fortress has been breached! Drive them back" and the breach would just be an object "breach" to imply the hole is too small for dwarves to go through. It is automatically sealed after the seige is over.

Actually having AI-controled units running around digging a fuckton of channels all over the place would be horrible and make the game unplayable.
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Shikogan

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Re: Xenobiology! How do antmen work?
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2008, 05:25:53 am »

Hey just thought since you are talking about hive minds and such i thought some of you may find this very interesting. http://www.kk.org/outofcontrol/ch2-a.html; well only chapter 2 is really relevant but the whole book is actually very interesting, i actually wrote one of my essays based on one of the ideas in the book got a high distinction for it  ;D, anywho just some stuff to read in case you are as bored as i am.
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axus

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Re: Xenobiology! How do antmen work?
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2008, 04:37:26 pm »

It would be even cooler if they could dig through materials up to a certain hardness, but not over.  So that un-dwarfy sand fortress would be easy pickings for a swarm of ant-men (or mole-men)
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MMad

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Re: Xenobiology! How do antmen work?
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2008, 04:52:41 pm »

With that in mind, I think they should be completely alien in thought. Like the zerg. Which is why I think 80% antman engravings should be utterly bizzare and random. "Here is an engraving of Cheese and a Hoary Marmot, The Hoary Marmot is Laughing" would make perfect sense in "ant-man culture" as a sophisticated jab at hive politics, but most engravings would be completely unintelligible to an outsider. Plus, they would be fun/interesting to look at anyways.

Um.. how would these engravings be significantly different from the ones dwarves make? :p

Also: antmen tunneling into your fort is an *awesome* idea. I know some are against the idea of their fort being all messed up - but screw those people. :P Just don't settle in antmen territory...
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Mohreb el Yasim

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Re: Xenobiology! How do antmen work?
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2008, 05:21:37 pm »

i liked it the only thing i have some difficulties to imagine is the hive mind ... i think it is just a cooperation of individues that make them act more like an intelect but they aren't (and i don't like a ghost -like hive mind idee like zergs) i see it more that they bypassed the human problem somehow (the fact that 1000 human act more stupidly then 10) and so they interact better ... i think a better comunication would fit with them too but it migth depend on the cast they are from ...(so solders mor beast like and workers a bit more communicative and inteligant ...)
but these are just IMO ... so take if you like ...
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Guy Montag

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Re: Xenobiology! How do antmen work?
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2008, 08:22:18 pm »

There isn't any such thing as a "hive mind" unless your talking about telepathy or some other sci-fi garbage.

Ants, like antmen, when just conduct their daily activities with zero thought. They mill about, farm, carry their young around, all on instinct. Nothing tells them to do it, one antman cannot communicate with an antman miles away, ect. They are for the most part, completely mindless unless they come to a situation where they have to think or use reason, and their mind "turns on" and they have to conduct some sort of business other then the typical stuff them must do.

That "hive-mind" stuff is done to death by other franchises, just make it so that its implied that antmen do very little sentient thinking and alot of laboring guided purely by instict. They were born to shuttle rocks, food, larva around, but if it comes to them making a rational decision, they can function on that level as well. Mostly them just planning attacks on your fortress, or identifying a barrel as something that stores food, or I dunno, knowing how to avoid traps or open doors, or pull levers.
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EvilCheerio

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Re: Xenobiology! How do antmen work?
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2008, 02:43:46 am »

hmm, if antmen ever become really organized, i have a great new megaproject idea. Ant-man colony. A massive second fortress underneath yours that holds an entire colony of ant-men. Bonus points for having a way to throw POW's in.
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Soadreqm

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Re: Xenobiology! How do antmen work?
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2008, 05:43:39 am »

There isn't any such thing as a "hive mind" unless your talking about telepathy or some other sci-fi garbage.
And I'm going to argue that yes, there are. And why would telepathy be any different from other forms of communication? It would be a efficient way to communicate abstract concepts, but if you can communicate abstract concepts with chemicals or language or facial expressions, what are you lacking that telepathy would give you? And any beings communicating in ways you can't understand is functionally identical to telepathy anyway. They know what others of their kind are thinking, and you don't know why.

Ants, like antmen, when just conduct their daily activities with zero thought. They mill about, farm, carry their young around, all on instinct. Nothing tells them to do it, one antman cannot communicate with an antman miles away, ect. They are for the most part, completely mindless unless they come to a situation where they have to think or use reason, and their mind "turns on" and they have to conduct some sort of business other then the typical stuff them must do.
If nothing tells them to do it, how do they farm and cooperate? Genetic memory? Entirely feasible, at least in a fantasy setting, but I find cultural memory more so. That's how humans do it. Humans learn a new skill or concept, for example farming, from other humans. They then teach it to other humans. And the knowledge survives, and every human doesn't have to figure farming out for himself and, indeed, have any idea about how it actually works. And when you mostly remove individual thinking, you have mindless insects learning from other mindless insects and teaching other mindless insects. Functionally, this is quite similar to the collective knowledge of the hive using the mindless insects to propagate itself. In effect, a hive mind. It doesn't become less magical just because it can be explained.

That "hive-mind" stuff is done to death by other franchises, just make it so that its implied that antmen do very little sentient thinking and alot of laboring guided purely by instict. They were born to shuttle rocks, food, larva around, but if it comes to them making a rational decision, they can function on that level as well. Mostly them just planning attacks on your fortress, or identifying a barrel as something that stores food, or I dunno, knowing how to avoid traps or open doors, or pull levers.
I mostly agree with the intellectual level you suggest. Individual antmen are little more than animals, not exactly stupid, but certainly not smart. Can recognize common objects they have seen before, and operate simple machinery (doors, levers) with a little effort. I suggest that since they're antmen, they should have hands and be able to use simple tools, like swords or picks, at least if they've seen a dwarf doing it.

I think the difference between instinct and a hive mind is mosly learning. If we have antmen acting purely on instinct, the hive will be unable to react to something the antmen have no instinctive response for, every time. If we have something that functions as a hivemind, the antmen can learn. So that if you get many antmen together and give them some time to plan, they can avoid traps, ambush your dwarves, focus their attack on unarmed civilians and remember which lever operates which door.
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Nesoo

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Re: Xenobiology! How do antmen work?
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2008, 07:19:27 pm »

Movement:
Antmen can carry several times their own body weight with ease,

Not necessarily (even if they're not human size, their strength would still be greatly reduced), but I'd be willing to ignore that for the rule of cool. I mean, if we can have skeletal fish that somehow move around on land, why not antmen that are still pretty darn strong?
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Duke 2.0

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Re: Xenobiology! How do antmen work?
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2008, 07:48:11 pm »

Movement:
Antmen can carry several times their own body weight with ease,

Not necessarily (even if they're not human size, their strength would still be greatly reduced), but I'd be willing to ignore that for the rule of cool. I mean, if we can have skeletal fish that somehow move around on land, why not antmen that are still pretty darn strong?

 Wait, ant-sized humans would be able to lift 175 times their weight? Awesome! 'Honey I Shrunk the Kids'  would be immensely more awesome had it had that. Imagine the kids tossing away ants several times their size.

 Ontopic, the Rule of Cool trumps all.
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Turnip

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Re: Xenobiology! How do antmen work?
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2008, 04:09:07 am »

The idea for antmen functioning like simple dwarves would kick ass.
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McDoomhammer

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Re: Xenobiology! How do antmen work?
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2008, 07:21:11 am »

Going down a completely different route, since we're throwing cool ideas around... I'm reminded of China Mieville's Khepri.  The males are large, dog-sized scarab-type bugs with basically no intelligence.  The females are sentient, intelligent, community-minded beings with the bodies of human women and scarab-type bugs for heads, communicating with each other by pheromones and small sounds and others by sign-language and writing.

Try reading Perdido Street Station if you're interested.  Like most of Mieville's stuff, the Khepri are very weird, often somewhere between squicky and completely horrific, and yet they just work.
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