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[Guy Montag]

Say whatever you want about materialism and greed. Greed creates demand for stuff. Greed creates jobs, and drives the economy. Greedy people serve the greater whole of society by buying new cars, big houses and other expensive crap they don't need.

Compare it to the traditional Latin American approach to things, who have a very laid back approach to work, and a laid back approach to material wealth. They'd rather take the day off if they can then buy something with the money they'd earn that day. Its part of their culture from being settled by the Spanish, the nobleman didn't work. The less work you did, the better off you were, so it seemed. Not to say South Americans are lazy, they just generally enjoy their freetime with their family and friends and love to party more then they want to spend money on stuff they don't need.

That might be a very general and broad look to things, but culture certainly has a massive impact on the economy of a place. Americans work harder and shittier hours on average then anyother country, barring Japan maybe. They get alot of money, because they want buy alot of nice things. This cycle moves the economy. The economy slows down like it is now because Americans are more pessimistic and careful with their money, like they were after 9-11 and Y2K. When the feverish cycle of greed slows down, the economy slows down, and then the world's economy slows down.

Unless your talking about CEOs with 40 million dollar severance packages, then greed is an excellent thing, and its possibly the driving force behind all technological and economic progress.

[Muz]

Lol, China is powered on greed. It pays people minimum wages and sells their work to other people to make money from their greed. I don't see China being a happy place.

But you have a point.. plenty of people are much happier because of greed. It's one of the best motivational forces, next to pride and lust. Greed is a prime source of technology. The main problem with greed is that greedy people tend to see material wealth as a source of power. Material things don't make you happy, it's having things you want that make you happy(er).

I dunno.. I predicted that the American economy would collapse in the 21st century.. I just didn't expect it to happen so soon. I predicted it back when I was still in high school. It was just so obvious with all their foreign policies, yet the reliance on foreign products and workforce. It's a country with the biggest % of rich people, but plenty of homeless people surviving on all the excess luxurious food that the middle class are too snobbish to eat.

60-90% of people in any country are stupid. It's the job of the country's leaders to make smart decisions. When you get an idiot leader, for only a few years, he ruins everything and the country is often too stupid to do anything about it.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

What I want to know is, where does this leave wrath, gluttony, envy, and sloth?

[Guy Montag]

What I want to know is, where does this leave wrath, gluttony, envy, and sloth?

Wrath? It keeps the defense industry churning out tanks and bullets, doesn't it? That employs a huge number of people, not to mention millions of people who's job it is to use them.

Gluttony employs farmers and creates demand for blood-pressure medication and tons of paramedics, doctors and nurses, all highly-paid and highly-skilled workers. Obesity keeps the demand for these people high, so when there is a disease or mass-cas or other problem, we have that many more medical professionals available to deal with it. Good thing.

Envy? well it motivates upper-middle class folks to out do each other by buying expensive SUVs and Hummers and what not. Increased demand from guys trying to keep up with the Joneses.

Sloth? Well, I guess somebody has to create demand for day-time television.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

Wow, so capitalism is a direct result of the proliferation of the seven deadly sins!  You've a beautiful mind for irony Guy.

You should totally right that out as like, an editorial or something.  See if anyone will print it somewhere.

[Cthulhu]

EDIT:  I redact my statement, I saw something on bash.org that makes me afraid of the FBI.  I heard what happened at Ruby Ridge...

[Awayfarer]

Hmmm, I want to contribute but I don't want to spend a lot of time on a post. Think I'll "meta" this one

*ahem*

1: Vast, sweeping generalization about Americans.
2: Ridiculous theory based only on rough conceptions about culture.
3: Comment that lumps the worlds population into a large portion of stupid people that I, of course, am not a part of.
4: Vast, sweeping generalization about people in a country I've never visited.

[Cthulhu]

Pretty much.  The problem isn't so much that we're all stupid, it's more that those among us who are stupid tend to be much more vocal than those who aren't.

[Kogan Loloklam]

Say whatever you want about materialism and greed. Greed creates demand for stuff. Greed creates jobs, and drives the economy. Greedy people serve the greater whole of society by buying new cars, big houses and other expensive crap they don't need.

Compare it to the traditional Latin American approach to things, who have a very laid back approach to work, and a laid back approach to material wealth. They'd rather take the day off if they can then buy something with the money they'd earn that day. Its part of their culture from being settled by the Spanish, the nobleman didn't work. The less work you did, the better off you were, so it seemed. Not to say South Americans are lazy, they just generally enjoy their freetime with their family and friends and love to party more then they want to spend money on stuff they don't need.

That might be a very general and broad look to things, but culture certainly has a massive impact on the economy of a place. Americans work harder and shittier hours on average then anyother country, barring Japan maybe. They get alot of money, because they want buy alot of nice things. This cycle moves the economy. The economy slows down like it is now because Americans are more pessimistic and careful with their money, like they were after 9-11 and Y2K. When the feverish cycle of greed slows down, the economy slows down, and then the world's economy slows down.
Unless your talking about CEOs with 40 million dollar severance packages, then greed is an excellent thing, and its possibly the driving force behind all technological and economic progress.

Oh my god, did you just say Latin America is poor because they are lazy?

Holy cow, I haven't seen such blatent racism and general stupidity on the functioning of economies since.... Well, to be honest, in my 27 years of living, I haven't ever seen such a stupid thing. This defies my ability to try to reasonably argue against it, It breaks my mind to read it. I hope that I haven't been living a sheltered life, and this isn't actually how people generally think!

My god, to think this...

Peru's history is a direct refutation of every single statement you have made. It is a third world country for the same reasons America will be one, poor economic decisions on the part of the leadership. The people can be lazy AND generous at the same time and the economy can still be successful, based on a few key concepts. Likewise, an industrious and stagnant specialist economy can become a bankrupt nation at the invention of a simple process.

Greed is bad, because greed is the opposite of a successful economy. A Successful economy rests under the concept of exchange of goods and services for goods and services. They can be things like car stereos, or things like an hour of work.
The evolution of contracts allows the exchange to be based on promised work or goods(also known as credit).
Your concept of greed is off too, you see, even those CEOs with millions of dollars you point as negativly greedy still exchanged something for what they have. Their labor may be valued more, but it was still an exchange.
Greed is refusing to exchange. Greed doesn't bring someone prosperity for long. It usually leads to the gallows.

[IndonesiaWarMinister]

Guy Montag is just a super-hyper-Republican-Patriotist-Capitalist-neo-conservative [note: Not an insult].

Yar'll know me sig, matey.

Anyway, I recall reading something [in the Greater Internet; Main Continent of English] that said all of our current economists are stupid (in the capitalists side) when compared to their 19th / 20th century breathen.

[Cthulhu]

I have to agree with Guy here, at least on the concept of Greed.  The driving force of our economy is the acquisition of things that bring us satisfaction, and willingness to give up something that doesn't make us happy in exchange for something that does, or that can be exchanged for something that does, doesn't make us not greedy.  When it comes down to it, every movement and twitch of the economy is based on this acquisitive drive.  Even selfless acts, like putting one's own life on the line to save someone else is driven by this.  The satisfaction of knowing you improved or saved someone else's life is hard to top, at least among people with that inclination.  Whether this desire is greed or just the pursuit of happiness is a matter of semantics.

[Jude]

I have to agree with Guy here, at least on the concept of Greed.  The driving force of our economy is the acquisition of things that bring us satisfaction, and willingness to give up something that doesn't make us happy in exchange for something that does, or that can be exchanged for something that does, doesn't make us not greedy.  When it comes down to it, every movement and twitch of the economy is based on this acquisitive drive.  Even selfless acts, like putting one's own life on the line to save someone else is driven by this.  The satisfaction of knowing you improved or saved someone else's life is hard to top, at least among people with that inclination.  Whether this desire is greed or just the pursuit of happiness is a matter of semantics.

Of course, if the only purpose that the greed serves is to create a system that feeds and produces more greed, you have to ask what the point was in the first place.

Particularly when the alternative, as Guy said, is spending more time relaxing, being happy, and building relationships.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

I have to agree with Guy here, at least on the concept of Greed.  The driving force of our economy is the acquisition of things that bring us satisfaction, and willingness to give up something that doesn't make us happy in exchange for something that does, or that can be exchanged for something that does, doesn't make us not greedy.  When it comes down to it, every movement and twitch of the economy is based on this acquisitive drive.  Even selfless acts, like putting one's own life on the line to save someone else is driven by this.  The satisfaction of knowing you improved or saved someone else's life is hard to top, at least among people with that inclination.  Whether this desire is greed or just the pursuit of happiness is a matter of semantics.

I wonder why they don't have a rule for this.

Ioric's Law: As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of someone spouting Ayn Rand rhetoric approaches one.

I mean, it's so god damn repetitive.

[Qmarx]

Okay, in reference to Kogan's remarks about nuclear power, I have an idea that will set the safety record of American nuclear power plants at 100% and keep them there permanently.  This will address not only safety concerns, but also the NIMBY syndrome that so often affects nuclear plants.

Dave's Idiotic Ideas, Part Three:  It's simple.  All you do is pass a regulation that states that the CEO and board of directors of whichever company owns the nuclear plant, as well as their immediate families, must live closer to the plant than anybody else.  You pass this law, and as the Republicans like to say, "the market will take care of itself".  When the guy who is in charge of getting a reactor built as cheaply as possible is also the guy whose children will glow if he cuts corners on safety measures (rather than him living in a gated community a hundred miles away), we will have a 100% nuclear safety record, period.

Now, I didn't just pull this theory out of my ass.  I'm inspired by the US Navy's nuclear submarine program.  As far as I know, there's NEVER been a Three Mile Island or Chernobyl on an American nuclear submarine.  Is this just luck?  Absolutely not!  It's because the man in charge literally lives on the reactor he's in charge of.  You simply apply this concept to corporate fat cats and reactors built on land, and presto, safe nuclear power.

Again, no, I'm not joking.  This is what I actually believe.  If I'm an idiot and this wouldn't work, by all means, tell me why.

Because nuclear specialists are... specialists.  You know, as in, they focus entirely on nuclear plants.  Plural.  That is, unless you want all of your nuclear plants in the same fifty mile radius, your plan couldn't possibly be put into effect to begin with.


Besides, Three Mile Island was *really* sensationalized.  In particular, cows grazing at a field five miles away got more radiation from the Chernobyl disaster than the slightly radioactive Three Mile steam release.

Chernobyl is an entirely different story.  The Russian reactors were some of the worst possible designs from an engineering standpoint, and the operators were idiots.  Let me explain:
Operator 1: Hey!  Let's run an unauthorized experiment on the nuclear reactor!
Operator 2: Dur!  Sure!
Operator 1: Let's see how far we can push the reactor before it melts down!
Operator 2: Oh no!  These STPUID reactor safeties are interfering with our experimanentingz! 
Operator 1: Let's turn them off!
Operator 2: OK!

Turns out that they couldn't push the reactor quite that far.

This is also a direct counterexample - if the guys IN THE PLANT can't be trusted for safety, people living vaguely nearby can't.


Anyway, Bussard's polywell fusion design looks promising, and fusion power would have an astronomical impact upon the economy. 

Really, all nuclear power needs is marketing.
"Afraid of nuclear power?  The French have nuclear power!  They have the most nuclear power in the world.  Are you more cowardly than the French?"

[Devath]

Peru's history is a direct refutation of every single statement you have made. It is a third world country for the same reasons America will be one, poor economic decisions on the part of the leadership. The people can be lazy AND generous at the same time and the economy can still be successful, based on a few key concepts. Likewise, an industrious and stagnant specialist economy can become a bankrupt nation at the invention of a simple process.

You obviously do not know the definition of "third world." Given the system as it was originally established, as outdated as it may be now, America is physically incapable of descending ranks in the system. The system is as thus:

1: Has undergone the Industrial Revolution.
2: Is undergoing the Industrial Revolution.
3: Has not undergone the Industrial Revolution.

As a semi-permanent boolean factor, all countries would eventually attain the rank of 1st world, thus requiring a new ranking system. As is, a new one is likely required to classify the ranks of the current 1st world countries. Sadly, there are simply too many countries that still fit into the old model. Thus, an extension of the system. Oddly enough, this is another thing no one really cares to do, so whatever.

While it may be possible to reduce the rank of a country on this scale, it would require rather barbaric and insufferably destructive weapons to accomplish the endeavor with any kind of speed.


In addition, due to some relatively futile disputes between those debating, I would like to ask that parties define the key words in their arguments for the purpose of the discussion, as I have seen parts of this discussion where the key difference, and the root difference at the heart of the argument, is the perceived definition of key words.

At present some of the key words that I hypothesize there might be a dispute on, or a perception error within:
-Economy
-Greed
-(Insert someone's poor flame here)