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Author Topic: America is full of FAIL!  (Read 18728 times)

Jude

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Re: America is full of FAIL!
« Reply #90 on: October 12, 2008, 05:12:17 pm »

Indeed.  Unfortunately democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.
When you think about it logicaly the baisic principal behind monarchy is much more sound (raising someone specifically for the job, teaching them how to do it effectively) and its the whole divine right thing that is bad.
Yeah it seems that way in principle

Communism is the same way
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McDoomhammer

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Re: America is full of FAIL!
« Reply #91 on: October 12, 2008, 06:33:42 pm »

That and, no disrespect to existing monarchs, but they start going mad from all the inbreeding.
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Jude

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Re: America is full of FAIL!
« Reply #92 on: October 12, 2008, 08:19:42 pm »

That and, no disrespect to existing monarchs, but they start going mad from all the inbreeding.

That too

Of course, one based on eugenics might have something going for it. Except that autocracy blows hard.
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Qmarx

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Re: America is full of FAIL!
« Reply #93 on: October 12, 2008, 10:47:38 pm »

The issue is, although a absolute monarchy with a benevolent monarch seems - in theory - to be the best option, there are several issues with it.

First - even in the best case scenario you get one generation, two tops, before you run out of qualified leaders.

Second - It's very difficult to find somebody who is actually willing to put their best interests aside in favor of the common good

Third - Honestly, the issues are so complex that one single person *can't* do it on their own.  They'll need to delegate, and they can't spend all their time finding qualified people (they have to spend time ruling), so they'll have to rely on the decisions, advice, and motivations on people who they've never met, who weren't even picked by somebody the monarch met, and it becomes a royal mess.

Fourth - problems with choosing a successor aside, continuance of government when your monarch dies is a touchy issue.

Basically, assuming people will try to act in their best interests means that you're guaranteed to get not-the-worst leaders.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 10:50:21 pm by Qmarx »
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LumenPlacidum

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Re: America is full of FAIL!
« Reply #94 on: October 13, 2008, 02:26:50 am »

Oh thank god people stopped with the generic flaming and misguided attempts at economic plans.

As an American, I was pretty much always taught and I do believe that an enlightened dictator is the best form of government.  Power in the hands of a single person means that things get done.  Power in the hands of an enlightened person means that power is used rationally for general benefit.  The trouble is that enlightened dictators are a supremely rare breed.

Second - It's very difficult to find somebody who is actually willing to put their best interests aside in favor of the common good

I've always been impressed that at some critical times in history, there have indeed been people who have done this.  Some might declare me stupendously biased for admiring an important person from my country's own history, but George Washington could probably have easily claimed sovereignty after the American Revolution, but turned down rulership based on the ideals that he and his peers believed in about the responsible wielding of executive power.

At least when the time comes to switch executive power into someone else's hands other than those that have been steering this country like a drunken teenage driver in a blizzard, we can try again with someone else.  Maybe things will get better.

Cynicism about large groups of people and hostility towards large groups of people really just amount to pointless bickering until someone takes action based on those ideas.  Once you start to do that, stop to think about whether taking action based on those ideas makes you any better than the people you're trying to attack.
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Jreengus

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Re: America is full of FAIL!
« Reply #95 on: October 13, 2008, 03:59:00 am »

You have to wonder what Russia would have been like if Lenin hadn't died untill a bit later.
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vanarbulax

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Re: America is full of FAIL!
« Reply #96 on: October 13, 2008, 04:00:03 am »

Let's not forget that America is not a "proper" democracy but a republic like most western countries. Instead of the people making decisions the people elect someone and they get to have control over whatever position they've been elected in for a certain time period (barring extreme events when some authority intervenes with another, but generally they are not obliged to but people are sacked because of a sense of fairness, them being incompetent at their job or a party removing those who think would be detrimental in an election.)

It's not even a direct republic since the people don't vote for the president but instead vote for their electoral college official who then vote for the president, and the electoral college isn't tied to voting the way they elected for so a small group of people can appoint someone as president regardless how the country voted.
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McDoomhammer

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Re: America is full of FAIL!
« Reply #97 on: October 13, 2008, 05:15:16 am »

The UK system, if anyone is interested, is that we vote for our local representatives (MPs), who both have a good measure of authority over goings-on in the area they were elected and get a seat in parliament where they can vote on laws and have a duty to make sure their constituents are represented.  There are six hundred-odd seats and the MPs vote for who gets to be Prime Minister- which in practice means it will be the leader of the winning party.
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Cthulhu

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Re: America is full of FAIL!
« Reply #98 on: October 13, 2008, 07:21:31 am »

What does MP stand for?  Mega Parliamenter?  Man of Parliament?  Many Pants?
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Awayfarer

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Re: America is full of FAIL!
« Reply #99 on: October 13, 2008, 07:48:03 am »

The one-person governemnt can work, it's just unreliable. The trouble is this; an extremely talented, rational ruler will make talented, rational decision. A really god-awful ruler will make really god-awful decisions. That and the fact that you might only have the competent guy in office for a few years and the jerk that follows him could be around for 70.

A number of monarchies fall into the trap of...
1: Existing king/government is corrupt
2: Capable Leader arises who gets rid of corrupt king/govt.
3: A period of decent rulership occurs. Roads are built, infrastructure improved.
4: Capable Leader dies. Descendants take over. Over time Capable Leader's Descendants get more and more used to living the "bling bling" lifestyle, care about governing less and less.
5: Capable Leader's line is now corrupt. Repeat from step #1.

Oversimplified, but roughly accurate.
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THLawrence

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Re: America is full of FAIL!
« Reply #100 on: October 13, 2008, 10:09:34 am »

What does MP stand for?  Mega Parliamenter?  Man of Parliament?  Many Pants?

Member of Parliament. I think all common wealth countries use this system. We do here in Canada. In fact there is an election tomorrow. It hasn't received much news coverage what with the US election and the collapsing world economies.

On the debate between monarchy and democracy there is a third choice. Utilizing a caste system. Those of the 'leader caste' would be raised to lead the country. A leader is then chosen from amongst them, most likely for a set period of time or will b able to be kicked out through some peaceful fashion. Then you can get rid of crappy rulers and still have a leader who was trained to lead from birth.
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McDoomhammer

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Re: America is full of FAIL!
« Reply #101 on: October 13, 2008, 07:47:29 pm »

It's an interesting idea, though far from immune to powerplays and grabs.

One problem with it, in today's world, is that it goes directly against the most fundamental tenets of the American constitution.  Even if you're not America, that means you have to be a bit careful with your PR.
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Earthquake Damage

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Re: America is full of FAIL!
« Reply #102 on: October 15, 2008, 12:25:02 am »

You have to wonder what Russia would have been like if Lenin hadn't died untill a bit later.

From someone who knows fuck all about Lenin:  What do you mean?  Seriously, I know next to nothing about him.

caste system

[smiff]Aww hell no![/smiff]
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 12:33:54 am by Earthquake Damage »
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Jreengus

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Re: America is full of FAIL!
« Reply #103 on: October 15, 2008, 04:23:31 am »

Lenin was a realist, things like the NEP show while he was working toward communism he was willing to make comprimises. Indeed russian peasentry was probably best off under the NEP than it had been under any of the previous 3 Tsars. Lenin was more concerened with remaining popular than forcing change. Stalin who eventually succeeded him didn't give a shit about the common peasents feelings and forced through policies like the 5 year plans and collectivisation through the use of force. "Oh you don't want to work on a collective farm? I'm sure you'll enjoy the labour camp much more then" or "Oh your factory didn't meet it's target over the last five years." *BANG*
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Kogan Loloklam

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America is full of FAIL!
« Reply #104 on: October 15, 2008, 02:41:55 pm »

Oh thank god people stopped with the generic flaming and misguided attempts at economic plans.

As an American, I was pretty much always taught and I do believe that an enlightened dictator is the best form of government.  Power in the hands of a single person means that things get done.  Power in the hands of an enlightened person means that power is used rationally for general benefit.  The trouble is that enlightened dictators are a supremely rare breed.

I don't follow your logic. I too, am an American. How the heck did you get taught the exact opposite of what I got taught, and manage to call it an American traditional way of thinking?
I was taught that an Enlightened dictator can only support the majority of those under his power at best, and in most decisions supports at or below the majority threshold.


I've always been impressed that at some critical times in history, there have indeed been people who have done this.  Some might declare me stupendously biased for admiring an important person from my country's own history, but George Washington could probably have easily claimed sovereignty after the American Revolution, but turned down rulership based on the ideals that he and his peers believed in about the responsible wielding of executive power.

At least when the time comes to switch executive power into someone else's hands other than those that have been steering this country like a drunken teenage driver in a blizzard, we can try again with someone else.  Maybe things will get better.
Ahh, the joys of democracy. What America has is in effect a system that attempts to overthrow the ruler every 4 years. This allows for us to get rid of unpopular rulers. The gift of our founding fathers is the gift of the bell curve. We may not get the spikes of glory that other governments do, but on the other hand, we don't get the pitfalls either. And when we do, they even out, since the timeframes are set instead of randomized by the quality of the opposing revolutionaries.

Cynicism about large groups of people and hostility towards large groups of people really just amount to pointless bickering until someone takes action based on those ideas.  Once you start to do that, stop to think about whether taking action based on those ideas makes you any better than the people you're trying to attack.
That is generally true.

I can go into depth about what I think went wrong with the economy, but i will put it simply, it is how credit and investment is done. Personal relationships between those that have the money and those that have the idea don't exist. The CEOs of the Nuclear Plants are living too far away from the reactors.

Economic growth and theory is dreadfully and horribly wrong, as well as significantly out of date. Anything we do is a shot in the dark, hoping that the pound of whtever is used is in fact a cure, since there was no understanding to provide real prevention.

Third World Nations (Defined by me as any country that has a stunted economy, an economy where the "average joe" in the country wouldn't be expected to be seen as a target demographic for packages to go visit the great barrier reef or some other location) are stuck in the rut of being where they are, or they cast off common economic theory and skyrocket into the global stage in a way that baffles the economies of the countries who are rocked by such issues.

All the economic tormoil in the world right now is  set to the tone of leaders in nations whom think they have the "perfect" solution, and ignore everything, including common sense, to get things back onto the track that they think they should be on. *Cough America Cough*

The solution to the problem is the Anarchist's view. Let them all fall down. When the world recovers, we can emulate the successful rebuilders. Perhaps then we will have a understanding on how to make a functional economy. Just like a forest, our global economy needs a good fire to stimulate new and diverse growth.
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