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[krumlink]

To all the Europeans jumping on the bash America band wagon... Chill, the US is only a couple hundred years old.  You really can't expect us to learn everything from your thousands of years of screw ups can you?

Im from Canada and our countries are very close in age. Yet we dont seemed to be screwed up, that'll change though since what ever your country does we get the effect. I wish our countrys were a ocean apart. Lucky europeans.

Also bout that picture by krumlink. A typical amercian answer, lets just blow it up!

Well when people are always criticizing America's actions it becomes annoying. If Canada and America switched roles we would be bitching about Canada. Just get over it eh?

[Guy Montag]

USA Today just said that They passed the bailout by some insane landslide voting. only about 32 of them thought it was a bad idea, mostly the hard-right dudes that said "The bail-out is socialist, and I fucking hate socialists"

The bail out is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. Its not the gov't spending money, its the gov't buying, holding on to, and SELLING these fucked up assets. The government will likely turn a profit from the bailout plan. The prices are so low in the real estate market, when the government buys out these assets, real estate prices, and demand, will in theory, spike like fucking crazy once the market and economy picks back up.

Government offloads their purchased McManors to great profit. Everyone wins, Gov't pays off their debt, and everything is just awesome.

[Mephansteras]

Strange opinions in here. "Oh, look, the American businesses are failing! Guess America is doomed. Glad I don't live there." *sigh* Really, America isn't doomed. It's weakened, but in the end all that's going to change is what big financial institutions are still around and who bought who. A bunch of rich people on wall street will also suffer, I suppose, as their fortunes fail on some very shaky business ideas. Oh, well, tough for them.

America still has the largest economy in the world. And still will be after this. The impact to the average American will be a little painful, yes, but we're really not about to go into a depression, folks. Most people won't lose their jobs, and the only people at risk of losing thier homes are the people who got mortgages they couldn't really afford anyway. And most of them will just end up going into bankruptcy and starting over anyway. So it's just the big banks who own these debts who are really going to suffer. And the whole bail-out idea is just an attempt to prop up the world markets to keep this mess from ruining everyone ELSE's day too. Well, any more then it's already been ruined.

I should point out that a LOT of foreign banks, including European, were in on all of this and are also collapsing. This stupidity is hardly limited to America, so all the "We're better then you!" nonsense is just that, nonsense. And for anyone wishing America would fail, think again. Your economies are so dependent on America's that if we did fail, the whole WORLD would probably go into a recession, if not an outright depression. You sink with us, boys, like it or not.

Fortunately, we learned a lot from the Great Depression, so that's really not likely to happen.

[rickvoid]

Ahem.

Fun fact. Lowering taxes actually results in more revenue for a government.

Suppose our tax rate is 10%. This is, of course, arbitrarily low, but it doesn't have to be high to make my point.

Suppose I make $800 a pay period, gross. This means $80 goes to the government, right out of my check, leaving me with $720. I need about 200 of that to cover half that months rent, leaving me $520 to live on. I go out to the mall, ready to spend a little green. I pick up a PS2 ($100), a game ($40), some new jeans ($10), and two t-shirts ($10). I shlep on over to the register, and the total comes to $176 (160 + (10% * 160)). I slap the money down. Bill works at the mall. Part of the profits the store makes on a sale go to his paycheck. For simplicity, lets call it 10% profit. This means that 17.60 of the dollars I spent, go into his paycheck. The government takes 10% of that, or $1.76.
I have $344 left to spend. The government has so far made $97.76 off of me and Bill.

Suppose taxes are cut to 5%. Again, not realistic, but it works for this exercise.

Now my $800 paycheck only has $40 taken out of it, leaving me with $760. I need 200 to serve as half the months rent, so I have $560 to spend. I buy the same items (totaling $160) but decide that I want to use my extra $40 to pick up another game. This raises the amount I have spent to $200. With tax, that's $210. Again, the profit for the store is still 10%. This means 21 dollars go into Bill's paycheck. The tax being 5%, $1.05 goes to the government.
I now have $360 left to spend. The government has made $62.05 off of me and Bill.

Now, just looking at that, I hear you screaming. By this model, it may appear that I have proven the original poster right. However, there's something else in there too.

I changed my buying habits. I bought another game where I only bought one in the previous model. When people have more money in their pockets to spend, they spend more money. It's the same whether you are rich or poor, a person or a business. You don't just sit on extra money, it goes somewhere and gets used for something, even if that something is being put into a savings account, which, by the way, is used by banks to lend money to people who... wait for it... SPEND IT!!

Oh, and one final thing. I've had it with hearing morons bitch about the rich. They pay a much greater share of the government's budget, and when they buy things like new houses or yachts or expensive cars or WHATEVER, that's money that is going into the economy and being used. Contractors and boat builders have to pay their employees, who take that money and spend it, and the place they spend it at gives part of it to their employees, who then spend it, and on and on and on ad infinitum. Economies boom when you lower taxes. It's simple math.

The solution to our problem comes thus.
1. Turn this idiotic bailout package into a series of low interest loans, and overturn the bad low-income home-ownership legislation that partly got us into this mess. Thanks alot, Franks and Schumer. 
2. Lower taxes. Cut opressive corporate taxes so industries can actually compete on even ground in the global market, and expand, creating more jobs right here in the states.
3. Cut federal spending.
4. Throw out all current politicians and start over.
5. As the first act of the new Congress, restrict the pay and privileges of Senators and Congressmen. If you really want to serve the people, you can do it while flying coach on a chartered commercial aircraft. Bitch.
6. Build lots of nuke plants. It's the cleanest, cheapest source of power available, creates tons of new jobs, and the "waste" can be recycled into all manner of products, including pharmaceuticals. (If it's good enough for the cheese-eating, surrender monkey French, it's good enough for us.)
7. Drill here. Drill now. We may not get a drop from it here for 5-10 years, but the effect competition and the promise of increased supply to meet demand will have on the Saudi's may astonish you.
8. ...
9. Profit.

And for your info Boksi, Congress has failed the United States, and it's people. The people have failed neither, unless you count electing power-crazed dousche-bags to the Congress.

[Earthquake Damage]

Im from Canada and our countries are very close in age. Yet we dont seemed to be screwed up,

To be honest, anyone saying that about any country probably hasn't looked closely enough.  Their problems are not identical, but everyone has warts.

that'll change though since what ever your country does we get the effect. I wish our countrys were a ocean apart. Lucky europeans.

"You're the cause of all our problems."

Riiight.

Also bout that picture by krumlink. A typical amercian answer, lets just blow it up!

Hello, stereotype.  Hello, condescension.

Fun fact. Lowering taxes actually results in more revenue for a government.

Bullshit.  The trivial contradicts your statement (i.e. 0% tax yields 0 revenue) and you're using a heavily (and deliberately) biased set of examples as evidence.

The truth is that lowering taxes can[i/] increase government revenue if conditions (both internal and external) are right.

4. Throw out all current politicians and start over.

New politicians will still be politicians.

5. As the first act of the new Congress, restrict the pay and privileges of Senators and Congressmen.

Legislators would only do such a thing when threatened with imminent revolution.  You'd need an extremely well-connected and charismatic leader to rouse the rabble to that extent.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, serving in Congress doesn't make you rich directly.  The campaign contributions and other unofficial dealings that do it.

6. Build lots of nuke plants.

This will happen.

7. Drill here. Drill now. We may not get a drop from it here for 5-10 years, but the effect competition and the promise of increased supply to meet demand will have on the Saudi's may astonish you.

I doubt they'll care nearly as much as you think.

And for your info Boksi, Congress has failed the United States, and it's people. The people have failed neither, unless you count electing power-crazed dousche-bags to the Congress.

One failing of (large-scale) democracy is that the people who win elections are not the people who should win them.

[Duke 2.0]

 Huzzah for American rebuttal!

[Earthquake Damage]

Huzzah for American rebuttal!

He is American, therefore he cannot say or do anything of value.  He is also a fat, lazy, greasy, war-mongering, fundamentalist, imperialist pig.  Let us mock him with our enlightened wit.

[Squeegy]

 Huzzah for American rebuttal!

Huzzah for retarded stereotypes and goading a flame war!

[IndonesiaWarMinister]

Huzzah for the attack!
We are falling, charge!!! My companion of those who wants to be superpower once more!!

Let's see, USA may be deleted from the single superpower. Now, China is near enough to be called 'Economical Superpower'. And EU? They are technological superpower. Russia? Their military is not-half bad, but they aren't superpower yet.

Now, why Britain hasn't make a rebuttal comeback? Where are the red coats? Hey, Queen, wake up!

Beside, if USA wants a world wide peace, why researching so much on military? Hmmmm.....

[krumlink]

Huzzah for the attack!
We are falling, charge!!! My companion of those who wants to be superpower once more!!

Let's see, USA may be deleted from the single superpower. Now, China is near enough to be called 'Economical Superpower'.
China has the 3rd largest econ but has a terrible human rights reputation

 And EU? They are technological superpower.
What makes them a technological superpower? If anything it is between USA and Japan

 Russia? Their military is not-half bad, but they aren't superpower yet.
Russia's economy is in shambles. Their governmental income is terrible. Military old and decaying.

Now, why Britain hasn't make a rebuttal comeback? Where are the red coats? Hey, Queen, wake up!

Beside, if USA wants a world wide peace, why researching so much on military? Hmmmm.....
Military researching does not mean instant war, many inventions result from a military research program.

[Earthquake Damage]

Beside, if USA wants a world wide peace, why researching so much on military? Hmmmm.....

First, a lot of non-military technological development is driven by/builds upon military research.  Positive externalities ahoy!

Second, people are generally less inclined to thump you when you have a bigger thumping stick.  Unfortunately, when you have a bigger thumping stick it becomes very convenient to solve your problems by thumping people.

[Cthulhu]

But thumping is the whole thumping purpose of the thumping stick, you dumbthump!

Thump thump thump.

Now that I've had my fun, I'm taking the position of a neutral poster in the flamewar.  You cannot make attacks across, over, near, or at me, and if you try to sway my people with propaganda, you'll be guilty of WAR CRIMES.  And WAR CRIMES are serious thumping business.

[Duke 2.0]

Huzzah for American rebuttal!

He is American, therefore he cannot say or do anything of value.  He is also a fat, lazy, greasy, war-mongering, fundamentalist, imperialist pig.  Let us mock him with our enlightened wit.

 And you are...
 Well, I don't know what nationality to mock. But be sure some of my American breatherin would somehow get offended and sue me for it.

 Damnit guys, stop giving them valid arguments!

[Kogan Loloklam]

Ahem.

Fun fact. Lowering taxes actually results in more revenue for a government.

Suppose our tax rate is 10%. This is, of course, arbitrarily low, but it doesn't have to be high to make my point.

Suppose I make $800 a pay period, gross. This means $80 goes to the government, right out of my check, leaving me with $720. I need about 200 of that to cover half that months rent, leaving me $520 to live on. I go out to the mall, ready to spend a little green. I pick up a PS2 ($100), a game ($40), some new jeans ($10), and two t-shirts ($10). I shlep on over to the register, and the total comes to $176 (160 + (10% * 160)). I slap the money down. Bill works at the mall. Part of the profits the store makes on a sale go to his paycheck. For simplicity, lets call it 10% profit. This means that 17.60 of the dollars I spent, go into his paycheck. The government takes 10% of that, or $1.76.
I have $344 left to spend. The government has so far made $97.76 off of me and Bill.

Suppose taxes are cut to 5%. Again, not realistic, but it works for this exercise.

Now my $800 paycheck only has $40 taken out of it, leaving me with $760. I need 200 to serve as half the months rent, so I have $560 to spend. I buy the same items (totaling $160) but decide that I want to use my extra $40 to pick up another game. This raises the amount I have spent to $200. With tax, that's $210. Again, the profit for the store is still 10%. This means 21 dollars go into Bill's paycheck. The tax being 5%, $1.05 goes to the government.
I now have $360 left to spend. The government has made $62.05 off of me and Bill.

Now, just looking at that, I hear you screaming. By this model, it may appear that I have proven the original poster right. However, there's something else in there too.

I changed my buying habits. I bought another game where I only bought one in the previous model. When people have more money in their pockets to spend, they spend more money. It's the same whether you are rich or poor, a person or a business. You don't just sit on extra money, it goes somewhere and gets used for something, even if that something is being put into a savings account, which, by the way, is used by banks to lend money to people who... wait for it... SPEND IT!!

That's a good argument, but it actually isn't quite true. You've got a point of diminishing returns on taxes. My point on the subject (I'm the OP) was that raising taxes on fallen property values as a way to recoup the "lost revenue" as stated by the news wouldn't affect the majority of people who watched the news. It has affects, and I know and understand them. It just tweaked my buttons that the news played "DOOM COMES! DON'T CALL YOUR CONGRESSMEN!"

Oh, and one final thing. I've had it with hearing morons bitch about the rich. They pay a much greater share of the government's budget, and when they buy things like new houses or yachts or expensive cars or WHATEVER, that's money that is going into the economy and being used. Contractors and boat builders have to pay their employees, who take that money and spend it, and the place they spend it at gives part of it to their employees, who then spend it, and on and on and on ad infinitum. Economies boom when you lower taxes. It's simple math.

The solution to our problem comes thus.
1. Turn this idiotic bailout package into a series of low interest loans, and overturn the bad low-income home-ownership legislation that partly got us into this mess. Thanks alot, Franks and Schumer. 
2. Lower taxes. Cut opressive corporate taxes so industries can actually compete on even ground in the global market, and expand, creating more jobs right here in the states.
3. Cut federal spending.
4. Throw out all current politicians and start over.
5. As the first act of the new Congress, restrict the pay and privileges of Senators and Congressmen. If you really want to serve the people, you can do it while flying coach on a chartered commercial aircraft. Bitch.

These ideas would turn the economy around almost immediately. These actions would work wonders. Unfortunatly, they aren't seen by our leadership as "Good Economic Policy". America got to the top via hundreds of small businesses becoming big. That point of transition is now broken, so there is now a dividing line between the two. Only the most successful can now become big now.

6. Build lots of nuke plants. It's the cleanest, cheapest source of power available, creates tons of new jobs, and the "waste" can be recycled into all manner of products, including pharmaceuticals. (If it's good enough for the cheese-eating, surrender monkey French, it's good enough for us.)
7. Drill here. Drill now. We may not get a drop from it here for 5-10 years, but the effect competition and the promise of increased supply to meet demand will have on the Saudi's may astonish you.
8. ...
9. Profit.

I've got to disagree with you on this one. Then again, you probably aren't in an industry profitting greatly for the transition from oil on the basis of high gas prices to greener energies. I am, and I am looking at the figures. More space is needed, but it is practical in some instances. Over the next 12 years, you will see a massive change in the nation's energy sources, for the positive in many places. This will hurt places that are traditional coal economies, but in states along the front range, the midwestern states, this will drastically change their economies. The national power grid will see quite a few changes shortly here. I know of one upgrade that is projected to start next year that I am not at liberty to give a discussion about. Nuclear power isn't the wave of the future. It had it's chance to catch on, and then Chernobyl happened. About every three years there is a nuclear disaster somewhere that causes health problems for the next few Decades, if not longer.

And for your info Boksi, Congress has failed the United States, and it's people. The people have failed neither, unless you count electing power-crazed dousche-bags to the Congress.

Remember, the American people elected those congressmen. If we didn't put our fail somewhere, what would we do with it?


Look, my opinion is that the American Economy does need to tumble, because it is the only way to get it fixed. This meas the economy of the entire world is in for a tumble, and that's good. Part of the problem is that america is the "safe investment", and safe investments never remain so for long. Safety always equals stagnation, which isn't the behavior a superpower should take. Stagnation is why china was the world's bitch for the imperialistic period. China could have been a player then, but they stagnated. The imperial systems crumbled when they stagnated. Now it's america's turn. If we are allowed to fall, we will be allowed to rise again, without the tons of tons of baggage of bad policy decisions on the economy (Like the "Let's have a national debt" policy)

[Kyselina]

I hate the stupid people in America, should be ashamed of even existing. 90% of Americans are stupid.