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[Iden]

Now, I know 'jumping' per se isn't worked out yet, but you can still alt-move to jump off of cliffs, and the such. I'd assume this has been an issue brought up before, but when I searched I didn't find anything specifically regarding this.

The issue i'm having here is that you become 'stunned' after "jumping" into water. Let's say you alt-move off of land to a space above some water, even a small pond with 7/7 water in it. You suddenly fall one z-level down, into the water, and become stunned. Honestly, I think this is kind of silly. If you jump into a pool, you're not stunned. Water should correctly 'dampen' or 'soften' a fall so you take less damage. Is this intended to be fixed? Or does weight actually affect this, so that if you don't wear heavier armor that you take less damage from hitting water?

[Haven]

I think it's assumed you're bellyflopping from a story or more up. Dropping one Z-level won't hurt you, but, just as in reality, a poorly-executed drop into water will cause much pain. Fall dampening itself would be interesting, but being stunned happens after any fall across Z-levels.

[Yanlin]

Actually water doesn't dampen your fall. It depends on your speed. Too fast and you DIE. Slowly enough, you go in.

Like the test the Mythbusters did with bullet proof water. A 9mm bullet managed to go the farthest even though they used bullets that go 3 times the speed of sound.

Why? The faster bullets ASSPLOADED on contact!

[Draco18s]

Actually, I think the Hammer Drop is more appropriate: does dropping a hammer make the fall less deadly?  No.

But yes, that was a good episode too.

[i2amroy]

But yeah, water will dampen your fall, but only to an extent. Once you pass that point, hitting water is basically the same as hitting a floor equivalent to concrete. This means that you hit the water and go SPLAT! and then all of your now separate parts sink into the water.

[Yanlin]

We need to stop belly flopping.

I hope Today doesn't favor fhysics (Fun physics) in the sense that dropping of that 50 tile high cliff into a 1 tile pool would make you survive unharmed.

[Cheeetar]

If the pool is, say, west, stop choosing alt-move "west- open space" alt-move "West below- Murky Pool", and you won't be stunned.

[Iden]

Well, yes. But how fast are we moving? Chances are that none of our dwarves are effectively moving as fast as a bullet would be toward the water surface.

Cheetar: That was never the issue. I know how to prevent stun from happening.

Honestly: we're talking about falling. Cliff jumping, specifically. Now, falling from amazing heights into shallow water? Could be deadly. But we're not talking about amazing heights. Our dwarves don't fly high enough to be traveling as fast as high-velocity projectiles when they hit the water. At least mine don't.

Seriously though:
What is a Z-level?

• Dwarves are what? 4-5 feet tall?
• Humans are 5-6 feet tall?

So what constitutes a new Z-level? How high does 1 Z-level need to be, for any given increment, so that you can build 1 level up?
 Well, it needs to be higher than the given entity building it:

•      The cieling of an average human room, (such as my own) is about say 10 feet.
•      The ceiling in my kitchen is about 8 feet.
•          On average: 8-10 feet high for a normal room?

So what would constitue an average Z-level?
Probably around 8-10 feet.
How much difference do you need for a dwarven underground tunnel to be able to build on both Z-levels, while having areas with stone still acting as a safe, solid floor between Z-levels? I'd venture to say probably around 8-10 feet.

Water is taken into account as x/7. Should we assume a Z-level is average 7ft, 1ft per tick of water? Who knows. What about Giants or Cyclops in tunnels? Do they bend over? Who knows, moot point: How did I stuff a dead cyclops into a backpack? Also moot. It's not exact, this is abstract. Forgive me for digressing.

7/7 == 1/1 == 1 whole square of water. 100% of that tile is water: we all agree to this. If the average height of 1 Z-level is 8-10feet, then that's 8-10 feet of water. If you jump 8-10 feet into 8-10 feet of water... well.. I'm honestly not too sure how deep you'd travel.

What I am sure of are two things:

If you wear armor in water, you are less buoyant and you will not rise, and in fact, begin to sink with enough weight. Ones own buoyancy will help to pull you up while in water. Armor, or in this case weight in general, is what divers use to help counteract their buoyancy and the buoyancy of their air tanks as to help them stay underwater, at a more balanced state so that they can swim freely. Jumping into water when you are buoyant, with little weight will help pull you upwards. This is almost like a dampening effect, such as I mentioned in my Original Post.

It is a fact that people are known to jump 50+ feet off of cliffs into water. (Giving a quick google, some mention on a youtube video of some guy making a world-record 172ft dive.) Albeit, they have plenty of water to dive into. Now with extra weight, such as armor? You'd prolly drop like a rock, and be far less buoyant, causing less of an upward force to negate your downward force, and more likely than not smashing pretty hard into the ground (which hopefully is sand, and not rock).

Looking into more High-Diving information, The World High Diving Federation uses these regulations:

• A jump height of approximately 23-28meters (roughly 70-75ft... for men)
• A Minimum water depth of approximately 5m (roughly 15feet)

Roughly translated into Z-levels, that would be 2 Z-levels of water, for about 7 Z-levels of a controlled fall... for an unarmored, trained man.
(Please note, these are jumps.. voluntarily jumping off of a location. Falling unintentionally, being dropped, or thrown would create similar yet slightly different examples of this. Falling flat  on your back, into water, after a 70ft drop would be potentially much more deadly than if you were to have actually dived properly)

Now all of this taken into account:
Does belly flopping from ground-level-equal-to-water-level in armor hurt as much as it would shirtless? I strongly doubt it. It might not be comfortable, but it wouldn't hurt like you just got reamed all over.

People can safely jump 10 feet down to the ground. (Though not always safely, but relatively uninjured most of the time).
Should jumping 10 feet into 10 feet of water injure you? (I should imagine not, considering the high-diving information provided. Even with additional weight, is that fast enough to cause you to hit the ground, underwater, hard enough to do damage, and not just be able to spring off of it?)
What about 20 feet into 10 feet? or 20x20?

I think I jumped about 40 feet into about 30 feet of water. (i'll have to go back and double-check)
I earned 4 mangled limbs, a broken skull, and some other various goodies. Is that fair assessment of falling into water?

Maybe once jumping is settled, maybe Diving skill could be required to take into account the skill of the individual to help their dive. Dropping like a stone will land you more dangerously, and require more depth to safely survive than if you were a skilled diver. It would be work for Toady to figure out, certainly.

Is weight taken into account while swimming? (From what I can tell? no)
And I guess my biggest question: Is weight taken into account when falling? (can't tell)

Should this be moved to a different area as we digress from potential buggery? Perhaps somewhere under suggestions? (possibly?)

[Yanlin]

Through my own personal research I put each tile as 2 meters tall. About 7 feet.

That's dwarven fortress tiles though. I'd assume adventurer mode tiles are about 3 meters tall. About 10 feet.

Now I am traceur (I do parkour.) and I can safely jump 12 feet onto solid concrete without so much as a bump injury. I can also dive into water from about 30 feet. (I tried once. Not that hard.)

I'd imagine a TRAINED and TOUGH and AGILE and STRONG human/dwarf/elf (What kind of diptard plays elf?) can easily outdo me. Fact is real humans can dive great heights.

Now for the bullet comparison. It's far more valid than you'd imagine. The bullet was fired from about a meter away. What you'd get if you dived down and being chased by mad gunmen.

Fall from say... 30 meters... You're in a for a big problem.

[G-Flex]

A lot of you are forgetting something.

If you're on level 2 and the water is on level 1, and the water tiles are full, then you aren't really falling any distance at all. The top of the water is reaching your feet.

[BatCountry]

As a former diver I can say this: a properly executed dive or jackknife into the water will make you descend (unarrested) about 3-4 times further than you fell.  If you arrest the dive, you can do it safely in less than 20 feet of water from fairly good heights (40 foot drop).

On a pike dive from 15 feet unarrested I hit the sandy bottom at 45 feet of depth. That same drop of 15 feet as a failed flip landing wrong with my head twisted nearly sprained my neck and left me stunned for several seconds.

If you're wearing armor or have something on your back, you're going to slam into your loose equipment when you hit.  If you're carrying a float or something with a large surface area (like a shield) when you jump into water and it's not clear of you so part of you lands on it, you're going to get quite a beating from the landing.

I think tripping off a cliff into water from 10 feet up is fairly reasonable that it would stun you for a while, if for no other reason than it would take you a while to figure out which way was up, get oriented, and start treading water.

An unclothed dive is another matter altogether.

[Yanlin]

Well if you're just in your clothes, you can cliff dive amazing heights.

But then again... You're in full steel.

A good idea would be to throw all that steel into the water ahead of you. But it should get damaged.

THEN jump in and grab it back.

[G-Flex]

As a former diver I can say this: a properly executed dive or jackknife into the water will make you descend (unarrested) about 3-4 times further than you fell.  If you arrest the dive, you can do it safely in less than 20 feet of water from fairly good heights (40 foot drop).

This doesn't matter because you're essentially falling null distance.

The original post claims that he starts directly above the z-level containing water. If the z-level directly below his starting position is FULL (7/7), then the water is AT HIS FEET at the start. As in, if frozen there would be a floor he could walk on.

It's like getting hurt by jumping into a completely-full pool, from the poolside.

[Yanlin]

As a former diver I can say this: a properly executed dive or jackknife into the water will make you descend (unarrested) about 3-4 times further than you fell.  If you arrest the dive, you can do it safely in less than 20 feet of water from fairly good heights (40 foot drop).

This doesn't matter because you're essentially falling null distance.

The original post claims that he starts directly above the z-level containing water. If the z-level directly below his starting position is FULL (7/7), then the water is AT HIS FEET at the start. As in, if frozen there would be a floor he could walk on.

It's like getting hurt by jumping into a completely-full pool, from the poolside.

Well if you try to run into a pool of water with full steel plate armor and a weapon... You'd be stunned too.

[Iden]

Well if you try to run into a pool of water with full steel plate armor and a weapon... You'd be stunned too.

I don't know. We're not talking about running into the water, or even walking; it's assumed that when we alt-move directly (south and down) into the water, you are entering the water gently. You are not stunned. I've never been stunned walking into water before (unless of course smashed by a wave, but thats not part of this example). I don't care if someone has a backpack on, or even a weighted vest carrying 100kg. If you wade out into the water, there is no stun. You may sink, you may have to work really hard to stay afloat, but you're not stunned. You may slow down when you hit the water, but that's not the same as being stunned.

Maybe it could vary on the definition of "stun". To me? A negative acceleration is different from a stun.

I can understand if you "jump" into the water, alt-move indirectly (south, yet above) into the water, you technically walk out into air, and fall. This I see as completely equivalent to jumping into water. Cannonball, anyone?

If Toady intended the stun to be like a "momentary disorientation of hitting the water from an uncontrolled jump", then I can understand. But if you actually jump, how long does it take you to hit surface and continue? Usually, not long: variably so depending on how deep under you went, but not long.

Perhaps with a longer amount of time necessary to reach the water if wearing armor. This goes back to a previous argument: buoyancy. More weight, less buoyancy, it would take longer to reach the surface again. Is this what Toady intended to simulate by introducing a stun when hitting the water? A recovery time taking into account how long it should take you to reach the surface again? Well, we'd need to test this with naked adventurers, then. I kind of doubt it, but I may be wrong.

The hard part about this problem is figuring out exactly how diving, with weight, would work. In all cases, perhaps it shouldn't unless the amount (# of z-levels) of water is great. Perhaps 10 feet of water for 10 feet of drop? Acceleration is exponential, so perhaps 30ft water for 20ft drop, and thus 30ft drop would require 60 ft of water?

In order to compare it to armored diving:
   Has anyone tested naked diving yet?

Edit:
Tested some basic diving. Did a 2 Z-level fall into water (1 Z-depth of water) resulting in a stun but no damage for both armored and unarmored. Didn't find a spot with deeper water near a cliff in the area I tested, though. Tested armored for a 4 Z-level drop (1 Z-depth), and got some decent damage, 2 mangled, lots of heavy bruising/dmg.