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[Romantic Warrior]

-What? Samurai have no access to plate armor

Although the iconic Samurai armor(made of iron/steel, contrary to crazed assertions about wood) was not quite the same thing as plate harness, it's a reasonably close equivalent. Leather isn't close and chain, though used by the Japanese, was markedly inferior, used mostly to cover gaps and such.

[KaelGotDwarves]

So...

I'm the one actually working on the Samurai mod, and this thread has 3 times the views.
Here's the thread. http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=25436.0

I'm kind of perturbed by that.

Anyhow, I'm writing down all the ideas to incorporate. I've worked quite a bit on translating tonight and it's a lot of fucking copy/paste to translate everything from english to japanese and then to romanji.

So far I've detailed the weapons. I'll probably get to armor tomorrow. I'll do quite a bit of Lamellar, hauberk, pauldron type stuff along with scale and brigandine stuff.

Contrary to some beliefs, Asia did have plate armor - such as Korean Goguryeo armour made of little steel plates woven together to be flexible. It was pretty damn hard to pierce unless you got under a joint.

That's why in the mod I contemplated balancing Koreans by giving them better armor (other races had other perks).

If you guys are actually going to talk about stuff/ideas you want in the mod rather than the Samurai themed fortress, please post your ideas in the actual mod thread.

I'll be happy to supply an early release if you want to get community games going.

For kicks, some images

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Chinese Encyclopedia of Arms detailing Song's Heavy Cavalry and their armor. Some details, such as helmet and longsword weapon may be incorrect.

Persian rendition of the same. Note the weapons being used and cataphract type armor on their mounts.

[Romantic Warrior]

Contrary to some beliefs, Asia did have plate armor - such as Korean Goguryeo armour made of little steel plates woven together to be flexible. It was pretty damn hard to pierce unless you got under a joint.

I would label that lamellar and not plate but that's semantics.

[KaelGotDwarves]

The other forums argue over it being a type of both lamellar and made of plate, so yes, depending on how you look at it.

But it isn't anything close to "full plate armour" and in certain ways better because it allowed much more freedom of movement while defending the wearer almost entirely.

[Mephansteras]

Which is why I had a Lamellar for a medium armor, and a Heavy Lamellar for the not-quite-full-plate version.

My hoboblins are somewhat like evil samurai, which is why I modded that in.

[Romantic Warrior]

But it isn't anything close to "full plate armour" and in certain ways better because it allowed much more freedom of movement while defending the wearer almost entirely.

I think that's just japanophilia but we can't really settle that kind of argument unless we were to wear the armor and beat each other to a pulp. Got $10,000 on you?

[KaelGotDwarves]

Nah, it's not just japanophilia.

I consider full plate to be "functionally stupid" if not on a horse, as it is hard to move joints, extremely heavy, restricts view, and etc. However, when all that weight is on a horse, it just adds more deadliness to the charge. Full plate was mainly for ceremonial usage while a pragmatic mix of limited plate, mail, leather, and scales ruled the battlefields in Europe.

A guy in lighter armor could just run circles around a guy in full plate and bash him into oblivion slowly, aka battle of Agincourt and to a lesser extent Crecy.

Longbowmen were a deciding factor in both battles (devastated knights at Crecy by knocking them off mounts) but once the knights did get up the hill, the lighter armored English infantry simply murdered and picked off the heavily armored French by surrounding them and beating them up/stabbing weakpoints.

[Romantic Warrior]

Nah, it's not just japanophilia.

You're right, it's worse.

I consider full plate to be "functionally stupid" if not on a horse, as it is hard to move joints,

I consider being able to do a handstand more than enough freedom of movement.

extremely heavy

45-60 pounds is not particularly heavy when spread over the entire body, and comparable to o-yoroi armor.

restricts view

Are you suggesting that none of these armors would restrict your view?



Well, they might not if you removed the menpo, which many samurai did. Much like knights often wore their visors up.

Full plate was mainly for ceremonial usage while a pragmatic mix of limited plate, mail, leather, and scales ruled the battlefields in Europe.

Could you share your source for that?

A guy in lighter armor could just run circles around a guy in full plate and bash him into oblivion slowly, aka battle of Agincourt and to a lesser extent Crecy.

You are describing battles where people were packed together like sardines. How exactly did these lightly armor Englishman run around the French knights? (Froissart on Crecy: "many fell, horse and men, among the Genoways, and when they were down, they could not relieve again, the press was so thick that one overthrew another." St Denis said as much for Agincourt)

Longbowmen were a deciding factor in both battles (devastated knights at Crecy by knocking them off mounts)

I think not enough attention is given to terrain and man-made obstacles. At the battle of Patay, the French ran right over the unprepared archers and at Verneuil, the archers on the right wing collapsed when the French cavalry over-ran them(had the cavalry wheeled and hit the remaining men, the English would almost certainly have lost). When the archers did not have natural or prepared cover, they tended to die.

but once the knights did get up the hill, the lighter armored English infantry simply murdered and picked off the heavily armored French by surrounding them and beating them up/stabbing weakpoints.

Which they could have done in any armor, light or heavy, as the French were both exhausted and reduced to a narrow front. Let's not forget that the Englished used 900 men-at-arms in their centre at Agincourt and had over 2000 at Crecy.

Crecy took place before full plate proper was in wide use. The armor would have been transitional, plate and mail. It's also interesting to note that longbowmen did not typically play a decisive role when the English were killing themselves.

[KaelGotDwarves]

First off, notice I wasn't even saying asian armor was superior. I stated full plate armor was unpractical and stupid.

I consider being able to do a handstand more than enough freedom of movement.

I don't know anyone who could do a handstand in FULL PLATE.

45-60 pounds is not particularly heavy when spread over the entire body, and comparable to o-yoroi armor.

Uhhh, full metal plate is heavier than that. Have you ever worn 60+ pounds? Tried running around in it? I've tried parts of it before at ren faire. Even full plate made with modern technology and lighter composite metals are only to be wore by extremely strong men.

Are you suggesting that none of these armors would restrict your view?



Well, they might not if you removed the menpo, which many samurai did. Much like knights often wore their visors up.

You could turn your neck in those, Full plate wasn't jointed to protect the neck better. You couldn't move your head. Mail was worn underneath the helmet, which doesn't turn and the helmet itself was immobile until you moved it over with your own hand, which is difficult when under attack I could imagine.

Could you share your source for that?

Only the nobility had the time and money to create full plate, which nicely enough, presented themselves as a target. Even during the height of chivalry, the battlefield was not tens of thousands of knights steamrolling each other.

You are describing battles where people were packed together like sardines. How exactly did these lightly armor Englishman run around the French knights? (Froissart on Crecy: "many fell, horse and men, among the Genoways, and when they were down, they could not relieve again, the press was so thick that one overthrew another." St Denis said as much for Agincourt)

Longbowmen were a deciding factor in both battles (devastated knights at Crecy by knocking them off mounts)

I think not enough attention is given to terrain and man-made obstacles. At the battle of Patay, the French ran right over the unprepared archers and at Verneuil, the archers on the right wing collapsed when the French cavalry over-ran them(had the cavalry wheeled and hit the remaining men, the English would almost certainly have lost). When the archers did not have natural or prepared cover, they tended to die.

That's effectiveness of the knight's charge, not merely their armor. Until the advent of guns, and even then, high speed charges of units through lines has been a popular tactic since the dawn of time.

The germans did engineer great full plate armor by the end of the 16th century, which a few people who used it still managed to die in. (No armor makes you invincible) Then guns made it all obsolete.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Also, before this gets derailed anymore, because I don't care enough to type up another response.

My point is - IN ALL THE TIME AND EFFORT IT TAKES YOU TO FORGE FULL PLATE AND TRAIN A KNIGHT, YOU MIGHT AS WELL HAVE 5 IDIOTS IN LIGHT ARMOR, AS IT IS EASIER TO MAINTAIN MEATSHIELDS TO THROW THEMSELVES AT KNIGHTS THAN YEARS OF TRAINING AND FORGING KILLED BY A SINGLE CROSSBOW BOLT

Full plate wasn't popular long for a reason.

[Markham]

I consider full plate to be "functionally stupid" if not on a horse, as it is hard to move joints,

I consider being able to do a handstand more than enough freedom of movement.

As someone who has done handstands for quite a few years of my life, not a whole lot of freedom of movement is required to succeed in doing a handstand.  It's mostly skill in momentum and balance.

[inaluct]

Okay, everyone calm down here. Right now, there's this japanophile guy arguing with an armor nerd. That's what's going on in this thread. Nothing important. It isn't important, so nobody should be getting all worked up about it.

But really, Europe wasn't about single knights facing off against little groups of people with crossbows, it was about human stampedes and people decked out in ridiculous amounts of metal hurling themselves at eachother, so direct comparisons are sort of hard.

Basically, one of you is saying that lighter armor used in Korea or Japan or whatever was better because it protected you a lot and was lighter, and the other guys is saying "You don't understand how fights worked in Europe."

Now, to an extent, you're both right. Lighter armor was more practical in a lot of cases, even though heavy armor provided more protection; and medieval wars didn't work like DnD. In a war, you probably didn't have to turn your head most of the time, because you could just rear your horse around.

Really, the problem is that the light armor guy is applying his arguments to a completely different set of situations than the heavy armor guy. Light Armor Man is talking about these classical-era warfare Dungeons and Dragonsish things and the Heavy Armor Guy is talking about mounted combat in medieval Europe.

So, basically, one of you is taking plate armor out of context and putting...

GAH

I can't take this any more. This has literally been stream of conscious writing up until this point. It still is, actually.

Okay, here's what I see happening:

OUR CAST OF CHARACTERS

TEAM BLU
KaelGotDwarves

TEAM RED
Romantic Warrior

PEASANT BYSTANDERS
Neoskel
A_Fey_Dwarf
Apegrape
caranha
Vugor
Ivefan
Ezuku
Neonivek
Duke 2.0
Mephansteras
McDoomhammer
Necro
Markham
inaluct

ACT 1 SCENE 1

Neoskel enters, to a flourish of trumpets
Neoskel: Hi guise, I make samurai fort, etc

Peasant crowd enters cheering
A_fey_dwarf: Yes, also Japan has crossbows [Y|N]
Apegrape: Autocrossbows.
caranha: No, China has autocrossbows
Vugor: Japan has spears
Ivefan: Japan has splintmail or something
Ezuku: man, i love suicide
Ivefan: It would be so cool if you could hit people like the fist of the north star with your crossbow traps from the end of a hallway
Necro: Hey, do something other than katanas I'm sick of katanas

ACT 11 SCENE 1
Neoskel: Hey, but I want samurai fort, guys. Not Japan fort. Samurai dwarves.
Neonivek: Something compilcated about ninjas
Duke 2.0: Hell yes, peasant revolt
Mephansteras: Hey guise look at this cool armor
McDoomhammer: Hey, samurais were wrasslers
Neonivek: I can't use bows, I have that weeaboo ninja crap, etc.

ACT 111 SCENE 1
Enter Romantic Warrior, on a resplendent horse, clad in plate armor
Romantic Warrior: Silence, knaves! Samurai armor was pretty close to plate armor. Just saying.

Lightning flashes. KaelGotDwarves appears from a plume of sulfurous smoke
KaelGotDwarves: I find the lack of views of my mod disturbing. I will translate my terms into some crap that no one can understand. Koreans had this stuff that was like plate armor.

Romantic Warrior: Being made of tiny little plates, it was more like lamellar armor, amirite?

The crowd cheers

KaelGotDwarves: Yeah, sort of. Some other people argued about it being both dinner and breakfast lamellar and plate. It allowed freedom of movement, though.

Romantic Warrior and KaelGotDwarves exit stage right, hotly debating the issue

ACT 1111 SCENE 1

Enter Romantic Warrior and KaelGotDwarves, fiercely arguing

A sentry rides in from stage left. It is Mephansteras
Mephansteras: The enemy has taken the river! Without reinforcements our position shall be overcome by nightfall! Also, I had two kinds of lamellar armor to solve your argument, but I eated them.

Romantic Warrior: (to KaelGotDwarves) We can't tell if that mobility exists or will even help unless we actually test it. You are a japanophile. Can I borrow 10k? The mafia said they'd break my legs...

KaelGotDwarves: No, I am not a Japanophile. Your Platemen are no match for my light armor and crazy guys with longbows!! HOO HA!!

Romantic Warrior: Japanese armor is restrictive. You cannot even do a smoersault in it, or something. Terrain is important for bowguys. You can do a handstand in plate armor, if you believe in yourself

KaelGotDwarves: I went to this one renaissance fair one time, and I totally couldn't do a handstand in plate armor. Also, I couldn't turn my neck for some reason. I think something's wrong with it. I need a doctor.

KaelGotDwarves: YES BUT A GUY IN PLATEMAIL WOULD GET KILLED BY FIVE GUYS WITH CROSSBOWS YOU SEE

Markham: You know, you don't really need that much freedom of movement to do a handstand, guys.

inaluct: hi guise enjoy this nonsense

The debaters exit off stage

to be continued

Please don't get angry if you don't like how you've been depicted in this epic drama. After reading all of this thread, I can't think straight any more. I need to rest or something

[inaluct]

Damn, I feel so drained. And violated.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Damn, I feel so drained. And violated.

But I haven't violated you yet

It was a pretty funny synopsis but I could tell your heart wasn't in it.

And I just finished translating DF's language into japanese. It takes too much time but eventually I'm adding Chinese, Korean, and Thai.

Also, didn't know it was possible for an Asian to be a japanophile

[inaluct]

I actually wasn't really trying to make a synopsis. At first I was trying to divert a possible flame fest, but it's late here and it eventually turned into a babbling thread derailment. And an abomination. Anyway, the armor thing really isn't that important, anyway, so I think we should all calm down about it.