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[Pilsu]

Many of the differences between males and females in humans are due to gender roles, not sexual dimorphism. This has been breaking down in many cultures over the last century, and there are many women who are more physically impressive than most men could ever dream of being.

Name some female athletes that consistently trump men in the same sport. How about female scientists or mathematicians? Anything that can be twisted into a competition? No?

That's politically correct bullshit if I ever heard some. Yeah, women aren't completely helpless or useless but let's not pretend human sexual dimorphism doesn't exist and how we're fundamentally all equal. The very concept is laughable pandering to women's insecurities


That said, I don't think dwarves need that crap. Humans might have stronger males and should you want to pander to women and stoop to clichés, elves might be physically female dominated. Personally I'd throw that one away and make the goblins and/or kobolds female dominated. It's easier to picture musclebound kobold females than tough elves. So much for liking them for their grace. Kobolds liking deir wimmenz big-like sounds more like it

[Hectonkhyres]

I'd go with the theory that female kobolds should be a full size or two larger than the males and be the meanest, nastiest thing you can possibly pack into that amount of space. Think the mortal hand of the goddess of naked molerats.

[LegacyCWAL]

Name some female athletes that consistently trump men in the same sport.

QFT.  Case in point: Candace Parker.  Sure, she could kick my ass without breaking a sweat, but being the best dunker in the history of women's basketball doesn't even put her on par with a whole lot of NBA players.

[CobaltKobold]

I mean... that the setting is supposed to express a sort of mythological environment where being a woman or man is no more an advantage as it is a disadvantage.

This. Many people like their escapism.

[Granite26]

I'd go with the theory that female kobolds should be a full size or two larger than the males and be the meanest, nastiest thing you can possibly pack into that amount of space. Think the mortal hand of the goddess of naked molerats.

I was thinking elves, but this is even better.... Huge liter sizes and a 99 times out of a hundred favoring males could be awesome, especially if ethics support 'Males kill each other, but noone kills Females' kind of environment.

FR Drow have the females being bigger and stronger too...

[LegoLord]

Uh, Granite, you've got what I said down as a quote from Neonivek and what you said down as a quote from me.  Kinda confusing. 

I don't get what humans being in the game has to do with dwarves ignoring gender.  The fact humans are in is why dwarves should ignore gender.  But I like that last idea.  Paves the way for modding in the Nac MacFeegle.

[Mephansteras]

I think the main point of all of this can be broken down a bit. There are two topics here, and they keep getting mixed up in unproductive ways.

Topic #1) Should the game have the ability for creatures and cultures to make differentiations based on gender. This includes simple things like only women wearing skirts to major things like females being 2x bigger then males.

Topic #2) Should Humans/Dwarves/Elves/etc have these differences and if so which ones are appropriate for that race.

Topic #3: Should adventurers be exempt from gender differentiation.

Personally, I'm all for #1 being true. I WANT to have weird races and cultures where gender differences are important. I want to have a human culture of amazons fight with the goblins because their women are virtually slaves. I want lizardfolk where females are huge and do most of the fighting/heavy lifting stuff. I want elves that don't see any reason to differentiate at all since there is so little different between their males and females. And I want to be able to mod the hell out of it.

For #2, I think as long as #1 is handled properly everything else will fall into place. Toady can and will make Vanilla DF into his vision for the races and the rest of us will be able to mod things to our satisfaction. Don't like that he made dwarven women beardless, change it. Don't think that human women should be common sights among the soldiers, change it. Whatever makes you happy.

But don't say "I don't want X therefore no one should be able to!". It's not fair and it's a silly stance in a game as moddable as DF.

Edit: Good point, Sergius. I'll add that one too.

[Sergius]

Topic #3: Should adventurers be exempt from gender differentiation.

[Pilsu]

Topic #3: Should adventurers be exempt from gender differentiation.

Probably

Then again, it can be treated as a difficulty setting

[LegoLord]

Topic #3: Should adventurers be exempt from gender differentiation.

Probably

Then again, it can be treated as a difficulty setting

That should depend on whether or not the race you are playing as has gender dimorphism.  Like, I dunno, goblins.

[Demonic Gophers]

Topic #3: Should adventurers be exempt from gender differentiation.

Absolutely not.  No way.  With the caste system, gender differentiation for some creatures could be very drastic, and exempting adventurers from that would be both difficult and bizarre.  For creatures where the differences are minor, leaving them in shouldn't have that much impact.

[Chthonic]

Topic #3: Should adventurers be exempt from gender differentiation.

Female adventurers will be at enough of a handicap as it is, assuming they pop out battle-babies like dwarves.  Although, for the "horrific things you can do in DF" topic, it would be pretty twisted to go into battle wielding your own child as a weapon.

[Footkerchief]

Absolutely not.  No way.  With the caste system, gender differentiation for some creatures could be very drastic, and exempting adventurers from that would be both difficult and bizarre.  For creatures where the differences are minor, leaving them in shouldn't have that much impact.

Agreed on all counts.

[Granite26]

Uh, Granite, you've got what I said down as a quote from Neonivek and what you said down as a quote from me.  Kinda confusing. 

I don't get what humans being in the game has to do with dwarves ignoring gender.  The fact humans are in is why dwarves should ignore gender.  But I like that last idea.  Paves the way for modding in the Nac MacFeegle.

Sorry about that, my bad for not checking.  I think I fixed it. 
Humans being in the game means tags should be in the game.  I'm not willing to argue dwarves, but I'm willing to argue humans. (OK, I AM willing to argue dwarves, but it's a separate argument from the tags)

Topic #3: Should adventurers be exempt from gender differentiation.

Absolutely not.  No way.  With the caste system, gender differentiation for some creatures could be very drastic, and exempting adventurers from that would be both difficult and bizarre.  For creatures where the differences are minor, leaving them in shouldn't have that much impact.

Depends on whether the dev/modder sees more value in pure escapism or trying to overcome (reality/ancient prejudices).  Denying reality/history doesn't make it better, it trivializes it, but not every media needs to wallow in the sins of the past.

[LegoLord]

Uh, Granite, you've got what I said down as a quote from Neonivek and what you said down as a quote from me.  Kinda confusing. 

I don't get what humans being in the game has to do with dwarves ignoring gender.  The fact humans are in is why dwarves should ignore gender.  But I like that last idea.  Paves the way for modding in the Nac MacFeegle.

Sorry about that, my bad for not checking.  I think I fixed it. 
Humans being in the game means tags should be in the game.  I'm not willing to argue dwarves, but I'm willing to argue humans. (OK, I AM willing to argue dwarves, but it's a separate argument from the tags)

Ah, okay.  Understood.  And agreed.  The tags should be in the game, if only to make it easier to make the races more culturally diverse.