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[MMad]

And, anyway, the stats stuff for humans should also make sense (women should have better social stats, if those get put in). As should gender roles. I shouldn't see too many female human caravan guards, for example.

Since it's pretty much impossible to even approach the issues of sex and gender without it being horribly political and up for heated debate, I honestly think it'd be sensible to just leave even the human sexes physically identical. That was you at least have deniability (in the form of "eh, not a priority right now" if nothing else :p). Although it could of course be added to the raws for anyone wanting to mess with it, I suppose.

[Mephansteras]

And, anyway, the stats stuff for humans should also make sense (women should have better social stats, if those get put in). As should gender roles. I shouldn't see too many female human caravan guards, for example.

Since it's pretty much impossible to even approach the issues of sex and gender without it being horribly political and up for heated debate, I honestly think it'd be sensible to just leave even the human sexes physically identical. That was you at least have deniability (in the form of "eh, not a priority right now" if nothing else :p). Although it could of course be added to the raws for anyone wanting to mess with it, I suppose.

I don't really see that it's an issue, as long as heroic (Adventurer) characters aren't penalized. I don't think you'll any backlash for NOT having a bunch of female guards, since no one really expects them. As long as you can have the exception to the rules as a character, even most politically minded feminists are going to be ok with it.

Besides, this is dwarf fortress. It's SUPPOSED to be specific, and deal with things like social issues. At least, that's the impression I get from reading Three-Toe's stories. I get the feeling that they'd love to have situations where the player has to deal with chauvinistic NPCs not taking their awesome female warrior seriously, and then being shown just how much they underestimated her.

In the end I think it's how the issue is handled that determines the reaction, not whether or not the issue is included.

[Zwergner]

I don't think you'll any backlash for NOT having a bunch of female guards, since no one really expects them.

Speak for yourself.

[Granite26]

I don't think you'll any backlash for NOT having a bunch of female guards, since no one really expects them.

Speak for yourself.

1:
As far as I'm concerned, as long as DF players complain about (and they are):

    Woman soldiers carrying babies into battle
    Woman soldiers having babies on the battlefield
    Woman soldiers forming romantic relationships with other soldiers so that one or the other goes dangerously beserk during or after battles (which is hillarious because it's one of the things modern armies use as an excuse)

You've got a reason for differentiation in terms of military service.

2:
Saying that you can't make woment slightly less strong than men because they'd be less useful in combat, and therefor not used is, if anything, MORE insulting.  You know, what with them actually being slightly weaker (OK, needing slightly more xp to get extra strength).

3:
Amazons would be another benefit from adding civ level gender differences.  It would be possible to make a society of women warriors whose men were docile (hell, there's a 'kidnap' tag, isn't there?)


My goal isn't to debate the PC-ness of gender roles for ascii characters, and I certainly don't want to talk about how much harder the game would be if you had to pay enough attention to figure out if yer dwarf is a Jerry or a Jenny.  My main interest is in figuring out what all would be possible, and what else is limiting people in their mods.

[Footkerchief]

DF players complain about everything, how does that constitute a reason?

[Neonivek]

DF players complain about everything, how does that constitute a reason?

*Tries to find something DF players don't complain about... fails* (They even complained once that Toady actually reads the suggestion board)

Sometimes you need to do things that people will complain about, if only because they don't realise it made the game better (such as annoying people in videogames, who give you more respect for the non-annoying people... Hense why JarJar Binks is in truth the greatest character ever! because he sucks so bad that he makes the first three movies seem better despite being outdated, plot holed, and corny)

Ive been thinking of this a lot... Perhaps children should start learning Fighting from their parents and if they are skilled enough they can be a Squire of their parent... Thus being butt kicking robins!

[Granite26]

butt WHATing robins?

(watched too much 60's batman growing up, sorry)

[Neonivek]

butt WHATing robins?

(watched too much 60's batman growing up, sorry)

Butt Whamning Robins!

[Lightman]

I would like to see names and pregnancy (gestation) implemented. Names, if nothing else.

The other topics (dress/ethics/behaviour/physical attributes) are all interesting points. They would add some fun variation to the game. I tend to think that most points would be best implemented in the raws so that obsessive/neurotic people players can adjust them.

[Pilsu]

Pregnancy is already sort of implemented. There's no associated bed rest nor is the player informed about it but it's there. Babies can miscarry too. Dad doesn't care but mommy gets upset, amusingly

[Lightman]

I didn't know they could miscarry! That's interesting... and it sounds like the game needs to be fixed so that the father is (possibly) affected, too. Anyway, I meant that I would like the player to be informed and there to be some kind of bed-rest prior to the birth.

[ProfessorA]

5 pages of DF gender discussion and I'm the loser who reintroduces the topic of gay dwarves.

[Footkerchief]

5 pages of DF gender discussion and I'm the loser who reintroduces the topic of gay dwarves.

Honestly though, it's kind of worth considering, especially in the general sense of drawing a distinction between pairing and breeding in the creature caste raws -- gay males and straight males could be handled as separate castes, etc. (leaving aside the issue of bisexuality and Kinsey scale stuff).  I imagine it'll be possible at some point.

[bjlong]

A few things:

Gestation periods are a must, and should adversely affect dwarven females to some extent. No more of the "Oops a baby just fell out of me" births.

Names, dress, etc., and gender roles could all be defined by how a civ relates things to different cultures.

For names, if the civ sees Hares, Cups, Donkeys, and Plump Helmets as feminine objects, then they'd have names based on Hares, Cups, Donkeys, and Plump Helmets for their women.

Dress should be more utilitarian. If the civ thinks that mining is a man's job and masonry is a woman's job, the man might get skirt-esque clothes, while a woman might get pants so that she's able to climb on the megaprojects easier. (That gets into gender roles)

More things could be considered gender-differentiated, such as architecture, toys, and so on. This would depend on the society's values, so it'd have to be randomly generated, to an extent. Perhaps there should be raws for anything that could be considered gender-differentiating for different races, with a few different options for male and female stereotypes, as well as gender-neutral toys.

Gender roles would be a combination of perceived capabilities, jobs, and preferences. This all seems trivial to add to the Random Number Generator and raws.

What would concern me, though, is that we'd be stepping into a completely different world in terms of gender roles. Perhaps the game could somehow walk us through the expectations of each gender?

Speaking of gay dwarves, someone should probably look up the wikipedia article about non-western homosexuality concepts. It had a discussion about something called "the third gender." (I don't remember much of it, and am off to dinner now.)

[Pilsu]

I really don't see why a race's culture should be randomly generated if nothing else is