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Author Topic: Gender Differentiation  (Read 22044 times)

Granite26

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Gender Differentiation
« on: September 26, 2008, 01:25:58 pm »

Sex matters.

In some cases a lot.

I'm trying to get all the ways that DF does not currently respect this into one place.  So far I've got

Gender Species differences : There's a big fancy word (sexual dimorphism) for this, but guys have beards, lions have manes, the femal mosquito is the one that sucks your blood, ants have queens, and a host of other cases where the male is physically different from the female

Gender Naming Conventions : Linguistically, there is no 'male names' or 'female names'.  This would be extremely helpful in terms of not assigning girls to the military, etc.

Gender Dress Conventions : Would be nice if me dwarves stopped wearing the Jenny clothes, eh?

Gender Behaviour and Ethics Conventions : Boys play with tin soldiers, girls play with dollies.  (It's ok for guys to be half naked and kill animals but society frowns on chicks doing the same.)  Obviously this will differ by species and civ

Gestation Periods:  Right now, there is no effect of being pregnant.

That's all I've got now.  Anything else?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 09:24:12 am by Granite26 »
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Neonivek

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Re: Gender Differentiation
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2008, 01:42:59 pm »

Quote
ants have queens

In ant's case all members are in fact females except for males whos job it is only to impregnate the queen.

Lets ignore the fact that the Antz movie cast consisted of entirely female ants. (Which gives a different spin on the movie ending... Can anyone say cheating?)

Anyhow, my suggestion is that if it is added it shouldn't be as one dimensional when relating to civilisations. Who says that women cannot play with Tin soldiers and men play with dollies?

I mean some people complain that Women in this game who are soldiers bring a battalion of children with them... You know who else does that? BATMAN!!!
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Tormy

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Re: Gender Differentiation
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2008, 01:52:14 pm »

Sex matters.

In some cases a lot.

I'm trying to get all the ways that DF does not currently respect this into one place.  So far I've got

Gender Species differences : There's a big fancy word for this, but guys have beards, lions have manes, the femal mosquito is the one that sucks your blood, ants have queens, and a host of other cases where the male is physically different from the female

Gender Naming Conventions : Linguistically, there is no 'male names' or 'female names'.  This would be extremely helpful in terms of not assigning girls to the military, etc.

Gender Dress Conventions : Would be nice if me dwarves stopped wearing the Jenny clothes, eh?

Gender Behaviour and Ethics Conventions : Boys play with tin soldiers, girls play with dollies.  (It's ok for guys to be half naked and kill animals but society frowns on chicks doing the same.)

That's all I've got now.  Anything else?

Stats? Females should never be as strong/agile as males. However this would change a lot of things in the gameplay, so I dont know that it should be implemented or not, even if it would be realistic. [Basically all female dwarves would be less useful in many cases, such as mining, hauling, fighting, etc.]
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Neonivek

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Re: Gender Differentiation
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2008, 01:54:14 pm »

Though the game is somewhat "Realistic" it is also "Heroic" and "Dramatic"

Gender differences don't really convay being "Heroic" too much when your playing a female and your just not all that strong

At least when respecting the Civilisations not based on Gender differences.
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Derakon

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Re: Gender Differentiation
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2008, 02:26:50 pm »

I rather like how the only difference between males and females in DF is that the females occasionally have kids. It may not be realistic for humans, but who knows when it comes to dwarves? They all have beards anyway.
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korora

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Re: Gender Differentiation
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2008, 02:45:20 pm »

Stats? Females should never be as strong/agile as males.

I think this is a bit too strong of a statement; sure, male humans tend to be stronger than female humans, but there's no reason to be sure this is the case for dwarves or elves or randomly generated race #342, or even that a strong (for a female) human is weaker than a weak (for a male) human.

I'm not saying there isn't room for stat differentiation between sexes.  But it's not as black and white as you make it seem.
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Steely Glint

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Re: Gender Differentiation
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2008, 02:56:24 pm »

Am I right in thinking we can all agree that male and female dwarves should have different names? I don't want my champions carrying babies into battle or being followed by a swarm of children as they enter the fray.

An a related note, I'd like to see families share the same last name. I don't care if it's taken from the father or mother, but it would be a nice touch.
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Skizelo

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Re: Gender Differentiation
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2008, 02:57:36 pm »

I support the gendering of names and clothing (would give something for the "Loves to defy convention" personality to do), but I would argue against stat-nerfing and the implementation of gender roles. Basically because it would get really annoying and, since they're dwarfs, it's got no basis in reality.
As for the Gender Species Difference thing; most aesthetic distinctions need to wait for whatever bloat or core handles that; now all Toady could do is make them different creatures, which brings it's own problems.
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illiterate

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Re: Gender Differentiation
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2008, 03:36:03 pm »

I support the gendering of names and clothing (would give something for the "Loves to defy convention" personality to do), but I would argue against stat-nerfing and the implementation of gender roles. Basically because it would get really annoying and, since they're dwarfs, it's got no basis in reality.
As for the Gender Species Difference thing; most aesthetic distinctions need to wait for whatever bloat or core handles that; now all Toady could do is make them different creatures, which brings it's own problems.

Seconded. 

Adding different genders into the raws has some interesting possibilities, though.  There are some hive organisms where the vast majority will be female (as commented above).  Others in which one species is grossly larger and more aggressive than the other (more commonly the female, really).  While the gender differences between humans because of how testosterone affects muscle growth is significant, we have no guarantees that this is true of dwarves or gobbies. 

It would also make the [can_mate_with] tag essential to reproduction, whether you want to have sexual reproduction or parthenogenesis propagated amazon dwarves(on the moon)
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Silverionmox

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Re: Gender Differentiation
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2008, 03:43:53 pm »

Sexual dimorphism would greatly improve wildlife! There are lots of possibilities, for example the angler fish: the male is mostly a parasite that becomes part of the female's body.

Some people like the fact that dwarves don't do gender differentiation, however. So it's definitely something for the raws.
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MMad

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Re: Gender Differentiation
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2008, 03:47:03 pm »

I support the gendering of names and clothing (would give something for the "Loves to defy convention" personality to do), but I would argue against stat-nerfing and the implementation of gender roles. Basically because it would get really annoying and, since they're dwarfs, it's got no basis in reality.
As for the Gender Species Difference thing; most aesthetic distinctions need to wait for whatever bloat or core handles that; now all Toady could do is make them different creatures, which brings it's own problems.

Seconded again (Thirded? :p).

Differenting names would be useful; differentiating stats or preferences would just add one more layer of annoying complexity that would mess up your plans. More importantly though, IMO one of the really cool thing about DF style dwarves is how bitchin' hardcore warriors the females can be. Go gender equality! :)

However, even though I don't like the idea of harsh limitations on the player races (or at least not on dwarves), it would make a lot of cool sense to make it possible for the two sexes of any species to behave very differently though. Especially for randomly generated races and stuff like that.
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G-Flex

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Re: Gender Differentiation
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2008, 04:22:11 pm »

Ideally, I think it sexual dimorphism should depend on race. We obviously know how it works with humans, but what about dwarves or elves? No idea.

I wouldn't really be in favor of stat bonuses/penalties for gender. That's kind of pushing it, in my opinion, unless the game were to use a relatively decent statistical model to choose creature stats, and it currently has NONE seeing as how every single dwarf starts with the same baseline stats and develops them the same way.
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Granite26

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Re: Gender Differentiation
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2008, 04:26:31 pm »

According to wikipedia, for most mammals the male is bigger, and vice versa in most everything else.

Long term I would think the correct way to work gender would be completely in the raws, with a given creature being defined as having as many sexes as you want, different types of reproduction, etc.

I'll use hive insects as an example where the queen mates with the males and the workers are female.  You effectively have 3 sexes and types, whereby most births are worker 'females', 1 in 100 are queens and 9 in 100 are males (rough numbers).  Obviously we've got room for 3 completely different creatures here.  They would also have completely different personality and morality sets (Queens would be encouraged to kill other queens...)

Several Sci Fi works include 3 or more sexes all required...

LegacyCWAL

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Re: Gender Differentiation
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2008, 04:47:53 pm »

I support the gendering of names and clothing (would give something for the "Loves to defy convention" personality to do), but I would argue against stat-nerfing and the implementation of gender roles. Basically because it would get really annoying and, since they're dwarfs, it's got no basis in reality.
As for the Gender Species Difference thing; most aesthetic distinctions need to wait for whatever bloat or core handles that; now all Toady could do is make them different creatures, which brings it's own problems.
Fourth-ded.  They're an entirely different species which flat-out does not exist in the real world, so saying "it's like X in the real world" doesn't actually support anything at all.
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Neoskel

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Re: Gender Differentiation
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2008, 07:13:49 pm »

I mean some people complain that Women in this game who are soldiers bring a battalion of children with them... You know who else does that? BATMAN!!!

Yeah but those kids kick butt. Dwarf kids just die or run away.
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