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Author Topic: What Constitutes 'Fair Play'?  (Read 5835 times)

Mephansteras

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Re: What Constitutes 'Fair Play'?
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2008, 12:04:57 pm »

Here are my rules, with a few more personal ones thrown in.

Traps : Generally limited to cage traps, because I like arena fights. I may use a few weapon traps in specific locations, but usually only one or two in a row to protect areas temporarily until I can get proper defenses set up.
Player Traps : Just rewards for hard work and ingenuity.
Atom Smashers : Garbage disposal only, mostly to remove clutter and lag.
Quantum Stockpiles : Generally unused, since I don't like the physics breaking aspect.
Quantum Dumps :Only under the atomsmasher, since stuff there doesn't last long anyway.
Crossbows : Usually less then half of my military, sometimes only a third.
Modded Races : Tons of races, but no real changes to the dwarves, which is the only race I play.
Modded World : Fairly heavily modded world, some powerful new metals in place. But I have more powerful enemies, so this is more of a balancing measure.
Perpetual Motion : Generally unused
Trading oddly high value items, like Roasts and decorated Ammo: Not used
Moats: Generally unused
Killing off annoying nobles: Unused
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Greiger

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Re: What Constitutes 'Fair Play'?
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2008, 01:28:12 pm »

Traps: Never more than one row of traps, and never more than one weapon in each.  If I have any need to capture stuff (for an arena or something) I place one cage trap before the weapon trap.
Player Traps: Built but rarely used.  I might use one if a massive horde is coming from one side requiring all my military to hold off while a smaller unit comes from another.  The trap would be used on the smaller unit.
Atom Smashers: Never used them.  But I see nothing against getting rid of garbage under it if fps drop horribly from clutter.
Quantum Stockpiles: Don't really use them. In situations where I want to clear some precious ore or stone from a place that's about to spend the rest of it's days inaccessible I tell residents to dump it just so it gets cleared out quickly. And as a side effect it usually ends up quantum stockpiling.  But I wouldn't care where they put the items as long as it's safely out of harm's way.
Crossbows: No limit.  However crossbow ammunition has been weakened to make up for the firerate.
Modded races: I use modded races but I try to keep them balanced and on par with the other creatures on the world.  For example A custom race may be immune to fire and size 7, but they are carnivores and more likely to berserk when unhappy.
Modded world: Heavily modded. But like above I try to keep everything in balance.  No new metals above 170% effectiveness(and those that are have rare ores and are difficult to make) easier ways to make steellike metals, but the metal made through the easier method is much weaker.  That kinda thing.  The world also has much more dangerous wilderness creatures.  And more powerful enemy civs.
Cooking Booze: Not happening.
Siege lockdown: Also doesn't happen.  The seigers always have at least one reasonably safe way into the fortress. Usually more than one.
Utility Use: Sometimes to make the game more difficult (Zombie seige, megabeast seige, monster ressurection) or more interesting (lavaworld)or to test something I recently modded(that should not have blown up at 1000 kelvin).
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TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: What Constitutes 'Fair Play'?
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2008, 02:12:45 pm »

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I'm curious why the one guy considers quantum stockpiling an exploit. It's not like it saves you work...well, I guess a little bit of work which you'd otherwise spend digging out rock stockpiles and figuring out what to do with all the stone from THEM...but until we have an option to have miners just smash everything into dust and not leave shit-tons of stone everywhere, I'll either quantum stockpile or drop it in the chasm/magma.
well, for the exact reason we don't have miners smashing everything into dust... one of the principle problems in mining is what you do with all the rock you are mining out.  in "real life" you'd be completely unable to use areas of your fort until you hauled all that rock outside or to a previously cleared storage area or tossed it into the chasm or something.  so getting around the stone problem with quantum stockpiling can be considered a little exploity.
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Jude

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Re: What Constitutes 'Fair Play'?
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2008, 02:20:23 pm »

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I'm curious why the one guy considers quantum stockpiling an exploit. It's not like it saves you work...well, I guess a little bit of work which you'd otherwise spend digging out rock stockpiles and figuring out what to do with all the stone from THEM...but until we have an option to have miners just smash everything into dust and not leave shit-tons of stone everywhere, I'll either quantum stockpile or drop it in the chasm/magma.
well, for the exact reason we don't have miners smashing everything into dust... one of the principle problems in mining is what you do with all the rock you are mining out.  in "real life" you'd be completely unable to use areas of your fort until you hauled all that rock outside or to a previously cleared storage area or tossed it into the chasm or something.  so getting around the stone problem with quantum stockpiling can be considered a little exploity.

Hmm good point.

Still, if unskilled miners don't leave stone, that's inconsistent enough that I feel like I should be able to tell my good miners to do the same.
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MC Dirty

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Re: What Constitutes 'Fair Play'?
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2008, 03:45:09 pm »

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« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 10:01:44 pm by MC Dirty »
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John Johnston

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Re: What Constitutes 'Fair Play'?
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2008, 04:01:43 pm »

As far as I'm concerned anything present in the vanilla game is entirely fair play, (although I've slight reservations about quantum stockpiles).

Particularly with reference to the AI and pathfinding.  I'd rather see people discussing tricks to beat the AI than handicapping themselves to allow it to beat them, because I'd very much like to see Toady implement cleverer goblins.
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Sergius

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Re: What Constitutes 'Fair Play'?
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2008, 04:16:02 pm »

I am of the opinion that anything that gets rid of siegers is fair play. Until there's an actual working squad interface that allows your squad to defend your fort (as opposed to having 99% of them sleeping/eating/getting drunk/partying... or even worse, having a bunch of active and willing squad members following a lazy leader that is doing any of the above). When that changes, I'll review my opinion. Until then, moats, traps, really cheap defense tricks, drawbridges, sealing myself in: all are fair game.
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Greiger

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Re: What Constitutes 'Fair Play'?
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2008, 05:10:02 pm »

There are a couple things you can do to minimize the military slacking off.  Telling yer military to carry food and water and giving them backpacks and waterskins do well to prevent them from running off to grab a drink or a snack during a seige.  Keeping most of them off duty most of the downtime helps too, as they don't dip into their backpacks and waterskins while off duty.

As for the military following their leader to bed.  There isn't currently much reason to give your military a squad based structure.  Each soldier being his own squad allows for very precise troop movements  Allowing yer meleeers the opportunity to take advantage of every bit of cover while they wait for the enemy to get close and yer crossbowers the ability to take advantage of every inch of battlement space. 

Also if yer willing to move the combat slowly it can even give defensive advantages.  If I'm fighting enemy archers I can often specifically order my own crossbowers on the battlements to dodge bolts and arrows with minor station adjustments as long as the enemy is still far enough away.
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Sergius

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Re: What Constitutes 'Fair Play'?
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2008, 07:09:30 pm »

There are a couple things you can do to minimize the military slacking off.  Telling yer military to carry food and water and giving them backpacks and waterskins do well to prevent them from running off to grab a drink or a snack during a seige.
I stopped giving my military rations when they started dropping their rotten rations everywhere in the fort creating permanent miasma areas. Since their rations are owned, nobody can pick them up and toss them away.

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Keeping most of them off duty most of the downtime helps too, as they don't dip into their backpacks and waterskins while off duty.
That's when they drop their rations to rot away while nobody can throw it away.

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As for the military following their leader to bed.  There isn't currently much reason to give your military a squad based structure.  Each soldier being his own squad allows for very precise troop movements  Allowing yer meleeers the opportunity to take advantage of every bit of cover while they wait for the enemy to get close and yer crossbowers the ability to take advantage of every inch of battlement space. 

Also if yer willing to move the combat slowly it can even give defensive advantages.  If I'm fighting enemy archers I can often specifically order my own crossbowers on the battlements to dodge bolts and arrows with minor station adjustments as long as the enemy is still far enough away.
I'm aware of the workaround to (try) to make the soldiers go to their assigned spots by micromanaging the hell out of them. The problem is... I need to micromanage the hell out of them.
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Greiger

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Re: What Constitutes 'Fair Play'?
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2008, 10:31:12 pm »

That explains where all that food was coming from.  I thought it was from 'Wheezy' the one lunged woodcutter, passing out on the way to dinner.

That food part was a recent thing.  I only started doing it this fortress.  I thought it was working, but I guess it was my imagination.  But the water should defiantly work.  And they do drink more often than eat.  My apologies for the skewy info.
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Romantic Warrior

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Re: What Constitutes 'Fair Play'?
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2008, 01:41:46 am »

Yeah, I'd read that before, but he's assuming a balanced, finished game designed to be played competitively.  You'll note that we haven't seen a single post from any player who is willing to admit to a core strategy of 'do whatever the game will let you do'

You've got one. In my opinion, anything the game will let you get away with is fair. I didn't say fun, I like to impose limits on myself to make things challenging.
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wendigo

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Re: What Constitutes 'Fair Play'?
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2008, 01:59:29 am »

Hey, I'll add myself to that count.  As long as you're not modding the game, it's all *fair*.  What does it matter what some running clique considers to be sporting or not?
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Ezuku

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Re: What Constitutes 'Fair Play'?
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2008, 11:54:57 am »

Just read the original post, skipped the rest:

Traps : I avoid more than a small number of them. They're just way easy to make. Cage trapping megabeasts is something I find is just cheese.

Atom Smashers : I have no problems with these, imho they just fill a role of something that would be in a real fortress anyway (crusher).

Quantum Stockpiles : Never used them, too much trouble

Quantum Dumps : Removing stone is just an OCD thing anyway, and it's hardly easy to haul it all around the place anyway. I don't really have any qualms about using it

Crossbows : They were imba in RL. Besides, you still need dwarves with shields / smart fortress design to stop them being overrun

Perpetual Motion : The difficulty and planning required to set up a perpetual motion machine offsets the advantage. Besides, most megaprojects are just set up for extra challenge/fun anyway

Pathfinding : Never done this

Nobles : Avoid killing them on like a plague. There's nothing more silly in my book than delibrately killing nobles. It's like a employee who keeps killing his boss until he finds one that doesn't demand a certain type of work.

Sheriff/Hammerer : I never do this, because when I fail a mandate I either feel like I deserve it, or I treat it as a bit of an unavoidable natural disaster.

Plump helmets : I try not to run my entire fortress on one 7x7 plot of plump helmets. I know they're in the game, but they're blatently overpowered. They're basicially the "perfect" crop. I try and change my dwarves diet as fast as possible off plump helmets.

Immigrants : I try to care about them. I know it's hard to when you get soapmakers gallore, but they're still dwarven lives and I try to do everything to make them survive.
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Krash

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Re: What Constitutes 'Fair Play'?
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2008, 03:06:43 pm »

Plump helmets : I try not to run my entire fortress on one 7x7 plot of plump helmets. I know they're in the game, but they're blatently overpowered. They're basicially the "perfect" crop. I try and change my dwarves diet as fast as possible off plump helmets.

You know that dwarves get a bad thought from eating the same thing all the time, right?
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Mephansteras

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Re: What Constitutes 'Fair Play'?
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2008, 03:24:00 pm »

To be fair, that's a recent addition.
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