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Author Topic: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.  (Read 3208 times)

Skizelo

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2008, 08:21:31 am »

You should release them, and once you're done with the fort, check the legends and see what happened to them.  I'm curious as to how that will affect the world, seeing as those goblins aren't pulled from the actual stock..
I'd be surprised if it's anything more than a "fled from [fortress]" notification since everything stops after world-gen.
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userpay

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2008, 08:27:26 am »

Give em a fightig chance, I release some in a room with a squad (gobs or whatever I'm releasing typically more than squad) however I've knowticed that not very many seem to fight back. Possibly they're still affected by the flee thing from a siege gone bad.
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Weev

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2008, 12:04:51 pm »

Kind?  Those green-skinned scum invade MY land, attack MY citizens unprovoked, and carry off children to commit who knows what horrible atrocities upon their innocence, and you want us to be kind?  I AM kind.  I give them quick deaths, with hardly any torture!  I refrain from stripping their armor and weapons until they've been given worthy deaths in the arena, a death that any DWARF, much less puling goblin SCUM would be proud of.  Then I charitably throw their stinking corpses onto the rubbish pile to be made into bolts later.  Surely my kindness knows no boundaries!

A worthy stance.  They sought to harm, and in turn must be harmed.  However, the issue isn't with killing them, rather HOW and WHEN to kill them.  A cowards heart might be fine for the most part, but some fights will inevitably come down to a stand, I do not want my dwarves to simply flee from those terrors, rather, to stand and fight.  I worry that my simply shooting gallery might be degrading the very spirit of courage that lives within my fort.


You could do both. Release them, and then put a marksman on a tower and see how many he kills.

But from an ethical standpoint, I'd say you'd better let them return to their wives and children. Surely they have learned their lesson by now?

However, I would LOVE them to revisit their old home, my cages, but I would like to think that these goblins have vengeance on their minds.  This time using the proper entrance, with a proper fight.  The dwarves of my fortress have an open door policy, as in, they have no sealable gate.  Traps only deter the weak, while the stronger of the adversaries must face the fort proper.

Anyone can make a firing range- even I've done them.

But an army of naked fleeing goblins?  That could go down in history.  Record it and post it here!  Bonus points if you rig all those cages up to a single lever.  And maybe you could keep the bloodthirsty happy by having a couple of marksdwarves stationed nearby to make sure they run...
You should release them, and once you're done with the fort, check the legends and see what happened to them.  I'm curious as to how that will affect the world, seeing as those goblins aren't pulled from the actual stock..
I'd be surprised if it's anything more than a "fled from [fortress]" notification since everything stops after world-gen.
I wonder if making them named gobbos would change that.  The elves of my lands have been good trading partners in the past, however they have lessened the amount of goods that they bring substantially.  I wonder if losing ANOTHER diplomat and caravan will adjust their attitude.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2008, 12:09:20 pm »

Arenas. They deserve to die a warrior's death, and your soldiers should not be deprived of the honor of the kill. That "champion" who earned his title in the barracks, sparring? Let him truly earn the mantle of hero!
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Pilsu

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2008, 12:33:55 pm »

Strip them all naked. Toss them into a pit one by one until you get one that survives getting stabbed by a single wood spike trap. Hell, toss them all in. Then send the one with the worst injuries crawling home

They came to kill you and steal your things. It is only fair you do the same for them
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Styrre

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2008, 01:55:44 pm »

Kind?  Those green-skinned scum invade MY land, attack MY citizens unprovoked, and carry off children to commit who knows what horrible atrocities upon their innocence, and you want us to be kind?  I AM kind.  I give them quick deaths, with hardly any torture!  I refrain from stripping their armor and weapons until they've been given worthy deaths in the arena, a death that any DWARF, much less puling goblin SCUM would be proud of.  Then I charitably throw their stinking corpses onto the rubbish pile to be made into bolts later.  Surely my kindness knows no boundaries!

A worthy stance.  They sought to harm, and in turn must be harmed.  However, the issue isn't with killing them, rather HOW and WHEN to kill them.  A cowards heart might be fine for the most part, but some fights will inevitably come down to a stand, I do not want my dwarves to simply flee from those terrors, rather, to stand and fight.  I worry that my simply shooting gallery might be degrading the very spirit of courage that lives within my fort.

Ah, but what courage is gained by slaughtering goblins in fair fights, where the dwarf stands a good chance of victory, and where wounds can quickly be attended to?  It may be sufficient for arousing the weak imitation that the beardless men call courage.

Yet I believe that true dwarven courage lies in the complete disregard for one's own life, a complete disregard for all the odds and numbers - we all know the countless tales of hammerdwarves charging into a dozen goblin archers, and the outcome does not matter.
Do you truly believe this unique dwarvenness might really be taught at any other place than the madness of a battlefield?
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Weev

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2008, 03:33:17 pm »

Ah, but what courage is gained by slaughtering goblins in fair fights, where the dwarf stands a good chance of victory, and where wounds can quickly be attended to?  It may be sufficient for arousing the weak imitation that the beardless men call courage.

Yet I believe that true dwarven courage lies in the complete disregard for one's own life, a complete disregard for all the odds and numbers - we all know the countless tales of hammerdwarves charging into a dozen goblin archers, and the outcome does not matter.
Do you truly believe this unique dwarvenness might really be taught at any other place than the madness of a battlefield?

To be fair, There has been numerous discussions on champions.  A champion in plate, is a death sentence to any goblin siege.
I have these goblins already captive, and I cannot safely, or honorably, discharge them.  That's my problem.  What to do with those that are left?
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Styrre

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2008, 06:09:27 am »

Ah, but what courage is gained by slaughtering goblins in fair fights, where the dwarf stands a good chance of victory, and where wounds can quickly be attended to?  It may be sufficient for arousing the weak imitation that the beardless men call courage.

Yet I believe that true dwarven courage lies in the complete disregard for one's own life, a complete disregard for all the odds and numbers - we all know the countless tales of hammerdwarves charging into a dozen goblin archers, and the outcome does not matter.
Do you truly believe this unique dwarvenness might really be taught at any other place than the madness of a battlefield?

To be fair, There has been numerous discussions on champions.  A champion in plate, is a death sentence to any goblin siege.
I have these goblins already captive, and I cannot safely, or honorably, discharge them.  That's my problem.  What to do with those that are left?


Execute them. They died the moment they entered your fort, that must be made clear. (And another thing about the arena - what honor lies there in overcoming an enemy that is already defeated?)
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The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Over unsounded gorges, through the rifled hearts of mountains, under torrents' beds, unerringly I rush! Naught's an obstacle, naught's an angle to the iron way!

sneakey pete

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2008, 06:18:25 am »

Already defeated? what, are dwarfish contestants the contestants invulnerable? No, they are not already defeated, because the second they walk into that arena they begin a new battle.
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chaoticag

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2008, 03:54:38 am »

My suggestion:

long corridor 5 squares wide. (and I mean loooooong)

All 70 naked gobbos running to freedom. The corridor has your entire military firing bolts at them from fortifications.

Bonus points if the elven caravan bumps into them.

Have a video of it up, if you ever decide to do so.
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Electronic Phantom

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2008, 02:13:29 pm »

Seeing discussions like this make me wonder why dwarves haven't thought to grow food(instead of Plump Helmets, Blood Helmets) on the corpses of their enemies.

-(e)EP
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Ezuku

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2008, 10:58:18 am »

Clearly, letting them loose will just cause them to run and attack you another day.

And yet, what if you slaughter those 100 goblins? You only stand to lose 100 goblins, and gain a few measly titles. Clearly, what's needed here is a megaproject to incorperate those goblins into.

May I humbling suggest building an underworld for them? Complete with beds (barracks), farms, stockpiles, and a well? Seal it up and then drop them in from above. I'm well aware that they'll never use those facilities, but you've just managed to create an underdark, with which mothers will scare their children with. As an added bonus, it's a nice place to drop unwanted creatures/immigrants. Alternatively, make it into a tower in the centre of your fort. You will then have created Rapunzel, DF style.
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chaoticag

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2008, 05:52:23 pm »

Clearly, letting them loose will just cause them to run and attack you another day.

And yet, what if you slaughter those 100 goblins? You only stand to lose 100 goblins, and gain a few measly titles. Clearly, what's needed here is a megaproject to incorperate those goblins into.

May I humbling suggest building an underworld for them? Complete with beds (barracks), farms, stockpiles, and a well? Seal it up and then drop them in from above. I'm well aware that they'll never use those facilities, but you've just managed to create an underdark, with which mothers will scare their children with. As an added bonus, it's a nice place to drop unwanted creatures/immigrants. Alternatively, make it into a tower in the centre of your fort. You will then have created Rapunzel, DF style.
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Jualin

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2008, 10:56:57 pm »

Those free goblins will die alone, tired and cold. If they're lucky, they'll find a goblin fortress and assault your fortress anew. Most likely they'll be butchered in some elven outpost and lie unremembered and unfulfilled. By killing the defenseless goblins, you encourage your engravers to give them a fitting, eternal tribute in their masterwork engravings.

Also, if one wishes to kill, one must be ready to be killed. They gave up their right to decency when the came demanding your blood. When they believed themselves enough to take you on, curse the consequences, where was their restraint? They had none. They would have none, even as they killed dwarves left and right. Surely they reassess themselves now, now that they've no sword to slit your throat, and not even a loincloth to their name? If they seized a single copper dagger, and held it for an instant, what would happen, I ask? We would once again find the kindness gone from these green beasts, and they would tear towards to you until brought down by bolt or blade.

If you wish to ensure that they are not treated with cruelty, kill them but remember them. Then you give them immortality. If you deem they've not been treated cruelly enough, deny them the privilege of being killed by a fellow warrior. If you wish to degrade them totally, show them to be cowards and filth before their own kind. Show them to each other at their most deprived state, instead of letting them suffer in solitude. And if you wish to treat them as kindly as possible, do not impede them. Let them free from your traps and unbar your gates. Welcome their hordes with open arms.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded. Innocence proves nothing. Happiness is a delusion of the weak. Cowards die in shame. True Happiness stems only from Duty. Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant. Purge the unclean. Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none. For the Emperor!
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Warlord255

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2008, 12:20:09 am »

Ahaha, I had some fortresses like yours. I used the captured gobbos as archery targets mainly, constructed a maze for them, used them in arenas etc. Nowadays I dont use any traps at all, I am focusing on building up a big army and sending out all military dwarves in sieges. Its hella fun actually, you should try this. You will loose dwarves, but bigger sieges are just awesome if you rely on full military action.  ;)

This is my plan for the next fortress. Macedwarves and a baseball field with walls, and a bridge to trap the goblins inside.
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