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Author Topic: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.  (Read 3211 times)

Weev

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Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« on: September 25, 2008, 02:53:02 pm »

Alright, we all know that DF is NOT the place where you shirk away from killing those puppies. We all know why kittens rhymes with mittens.  But how about those things that we DONT own?  The lives of goblins.

Currently, siege after siege of my own has been foiled by traps.  For those lucky few that attacked while my fortress was still revving up it's defences, they got caught in a formidable field of cage traps.  The latter groups found out what it was to be in a blender.  However, I still have the surplus of goblins in my animal piles to deal with.  They have now hit the 100th gobbo mark.  That's right. they are equal to HALF my dwarven population.  However, my super mayor, being the genius she is, brought about the small "Execution range" for my marksdwarves to earn their stripes at.

Consquently, 30 of the 100 gobbos have been shot, and killed, with no chance to defend themselves.

I'm begining to worry that this is unethical, AND unhealthy for my dwarven populations cultural growth.  It has started to showw up in my engravers work, and I dare say, I am a bit uneasy when I think about the merciless way my dwarves treat these fellow sentiant beings. 
Doing some testing, I can effectivly strip these goblins down, and release them, with no ill consequence.  They run straight out of my kingdom.  However, being the politically minded man I am, I wish to pose the question to the general census.

Continue the slaughter?  Or release an army of naked goblins on my neighbors?

Please, be kind, think of the possibilities, and remember, this is a friendly discussion of the fate of an entire civilization.
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Oddly enough I find it weird that Dwarves currently cannot attain godhood.

Skizelo

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2008, 03:06:29 pm »

As a big a fan of the RNG as there can be, I say shoot away. Those marksdwarves aren't going to get a title any other way.
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Guy Montag

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2008, 03:21:18 pm »

Well, I think using square miles of cage traps is a little cheese, I do use them too for capturing prisoners. I mostly use my captured goblins to execute nobles, which makes Juairs Babyslaughters, Goblin Maceman x 20 a valued asset I cannot afford not to have in my fortress.

As for any ethical issues, I'm certain goblins attack your fortress because they want a warrior's death. Much like every single armed adventurer you recruit in Adventurer mode. "Will you give me a warriors death?" is what they ask.

Well, with goblin soldiers, I pit them against my military, or maybe my Baron Consort. I never disarm them, because I don't know how, and I let them go out in a blaze of glory, being un-throat'ed by wardogs or whatever.

Having marksdwarves train on them is a perfectly legitimate way of disposing of goblins. The goblins's warrior culture makes an -Iron Bolt- an ideal way of enabling your goblin captive to meet their civilization leader's friends in person.

With Goblins? Kill them however you want, so long as its violent. They didn't come to your fortress for anything less.
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Tormy

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2008, 03:31:07 pm »

Ahaha, I had some fortresses like yours. I used the captured gobbos as archery targets mainly, constructed a maze for them, used them in arenas etc. Nowadays I dont use any traps at all, I am focusing on building up a big army and sending out all military dwarves in sieges. Its hella fun actually, you should try this. You will loose dwarves, but bigger sieges are just awesome if you rely on full military action.  ;)
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Weev

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2008, 03:31:53 pm »

You bring up a valid point Guy, Goblins do come to my fortress expecting death or slaughter.  However, I can meet their newer generation with this mandate, but the older and sneakier bunch still are in their cages.  While I do give them deaths, I start to wonder if I am in need of grander projects, such as an arena.  I do not wish my dwarvish civilization to become lax in their regimen, just because the only combat they see is through the protective fortifications, and always beyond reach of the goblins.  Courage can be diluted through malicious acts.

Do I want to provide equal chances to the captives?  No.  Do I want to see combat worthy of a dwarvish warriors stature?  Yes.

But the question remains, is the shooting range enough?  Or do I need to get more inventive?
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Weev

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2008, 03:33:56 pm »

Tormy, my fort relies on traps as it waits to be promoted to a mountainhome.  Legends can come later, I need survival.  Plus, my squads of dwarves do take casualties when I send them out to protect trader caravans.  The spice must flow.
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Oddly enough I find it weird that Dwarves currently cannot attain godhood.

Tormy

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2008, 03:52:53 pm »

Tormy, my fort relies on traps as it waits to be promoted to a mountainhome. 

Ah okay, understandable. By the way, I had a 120y+ old fortress without any military back in time. [popcap was on] :)
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Guy Montag

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2008, 03:58:58 pm »

But the question remains, is the shooting range enough?  Or do I need to get more inventive?

30% of my population... of 114 dwarves (pop cap is 100.. arg @ FPS) are in my glorious military. Trained in hammering, shootan', hammering and wrassin' I am constantly challenged to provide them something to do. They do snipe/ bludgeon the random kolbold theif that finds itseld exposed in the middle of my barracks, I do understand your need for them to have a serious challenge.

Easy solution would be to [p]it your goblins behind their own set of fortifications several tiles away from where your marksdwarf squad is deployed. Maybe even 2-tiles deep. Your marksdarves will have considerable difficulty hitting them, and will spend a lot of -Iron Bolts- trying to shoot them through thoses narrow windows with panicking goblins running around behind them. They increase in skill as they target practice on moving targets, using your Iron Bolts forged from your 7th Magenite vein... while your doomed goblin prisioners still have a substantal life expectancy once [P]itted.

For Goblin Honor? I leave Snatchers and Theives for target practice, because they are not agressive or skilled enough for anything else. Goblin soldiers should be dropped into a pit filled with your not-yet-named wardogs, or into a group of not-veteran Hammer/Axedwarves looking to prove themselves.

I never disarm them untill I can pry their Iron weapons from their cold dead hands, and neither should you.

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Jude

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2008, 04:21:39 pm »

It's mean world (and worldgen) out there and dwarves are not the type to consider charters of human rights, or sympathy for things with green skin. It's bad enough they're still alive, punch 'em full of holes!
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Golgath

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2008, 04:28:46 pm »

You should release them, and once you're done with the fort, check the legends and see what happened to them.  I'm curious as to how that will affect the world, seeing as those goblins aren't pulled from the actual stock..
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mendonca

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2008, 04:34:59 pm »

Goblins came from the earth and they shall return. There fallen corpses shall bring fruitful crops to dwarvenkind.

Do not stop this mindful, considerate slaughter until the engravers tell tales of goblins that once were.

The children of the mountainhomes deserve no less.
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McDoomhammer

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2008, 07:03:49 pm »

Anyone can make a firing range- even I've done them.

But an army of naked fleeing goblins?  That could go down in history.  Record it and post it here!  Bonus points if you rig all those cages up to a single lever.  And maybe you could keep the bloodthirsty happy by having a couple of marksdwarves stationed nearby to make sure they run...
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Styrre

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2008, 03:15:47 am »

The goblins and me, we have an understanding: They enter my fortress and are never seen again. Their weapons and armor are converted into iron bars, their clothing destroyed, and bolts made from their bones. If they wouldn't want to die, they could simply point the siege towards another settlement.
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Bromor Neckbeard

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2008, 04:05:24 am »

Quote from: Weev
But how about those things that we DONT own?  The lives of goblins.

As the governing overmind of an entire city, who determines life and death for his followers at the merest whim, I'm megalomaniacal enough to consider the lives of the goblins MINE as well.  Goblins exist for but three reasons: 
So that my military dwarves have something to shoot, slash, chop, and bash. 
So that my death machines have something to squish, drown, immolate, or freeze. 
Lastly, so that my miners don't have to dig for iron ore if I feel like letting them party instead.

It is not just the goblins that exist solely for my sadistic amusement.  I make a point out of defoliating the entire map at least biennially, just on the off chance that it will infuriate those damned song-singin' tree-huggin' pantywaists that never bring me anything useful to trade. :o

Quote from: Weev
I'm beginning to worry that this is unethical, AND unhealthy for my dwarven population's cultural growth.  It has started to show up in my engravers work, and I dare say, I am a bit uneasy when I think about the merciless way my dwarves treat these fellow sentient beings.

Your standards of ethical behavior differ from mine.  Armok is a merciless and bloodthirsty god.  Armok only made goblins sentient so that their screams would be more enjoyable.  As long as the engravings aren't showing suffering dwarves, their cultural growth is progressing perfectly.

Quote from: Weev
Please, be kind, think of the possibilities, and remember, this is a friendly discussion of the fate of an entire civilization.

Kind?  Those green-skinned scum invade MY land, attack MY citizens unprovoked, and carry off children to commit who knows what horrible atrocities upon their innocence, and you want us to be kind?  I AM kind.  I give them quick deaths, with hardly any torture!  I refrain from stripping their armor and weapons until they've been given worthy deaths in the arena, a death that any DWARF, much less puling goblin SCUM would be proud of.  Then I charitably throw their stinking corpses onto the rubbish pile to be made into bolts later.  Surely my kindness knows no boundaries!
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Muz

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Re: Ethical Practice: Shooting Gallery.
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2008, 07:17:27 am »

You could do both. Release them, and then put a marksman on a tower and see how many he kills.

But from an ethical standpoint, I'd say you'd better let them return to their wives and children. Surely they have learned their lesson by now?
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