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Author Topic: Elemental: War of Magic - Stardock's upcoming fantasy TBS  (Read 50442 times)

wallish

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Re: Stardock's upcoming turn based fantasy strategy game
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2008, 12:49:51 am »

That's my biggest problem with GalCiv.  The AI was supposed to be one of the major selling points and what it actually is is this brain-dead crank-out-units machine that doesn't have the slightest concept of planning or strategy or tactics.  The difficulty setting basically changes how fast it cranks out more units.  I know the claim is that at higher difficulty settings it also has access to smarter things to do but I never once saw it behave in a way that would lead me to think that means very much - it was always just build tons of ships, threaten me, flood my space with ships, lose every single goddamned one to minimal casualties on my part, and not ever understand "hey I'm doing something fuckass dumb".

I'm going to have to disagree with you.  One of the most surprising, and coolest, events that has happened to me in against an AI in any game was when I started to use my usual tactic against the GalCiv2 AI and got called out on it.

 When I first started to play GalCiv2 I had just gotten off a Civilization kick.  My strategy at the time was to keep friendly relations with my soon-to-be-enemy as I built up my army.  I would then get my army as close to their cities (in this case planets) as would be allowed (which meant the borders here).  Once my forces were in placed I'd declare war or take hostile action, usually ensuring a quick and easy take down.

So I'm lining up my forces along the border while playing on, I believe, easy or second-from-easy difficulty.  All of a sudden a pop up appears with the face of the leader that I was about to attack. The message said something along the lines of: "I notice you're lining up your forces along my borders.  This is obviously a preparation for an attack of some sort.  If the difficulty setting was higher I would take this as an offensive gesture and respond accordingly.  However, due to current difficulty settings I am unable to react correctly to the situation."

I was stunned.  It was the first time an AI has ever called me out on a tactic like that.
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Tormy

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Re: Stardock's upcoming turn based fantasy strategy game
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2008, 05:20:37 am »

That's my biggest problem with GalCiv.  The AI was supposed to be one of the major selling points and what it actually is is this brain-dead crank-out-units machine that doesn't have the slightest concept of planning or strategy or tactics.  The difficulty setting basically changes how fast it cranks out more units.  I know the claim is that at higher difficulty settings it also has access to smarter things to do but I never once saw it behave in a way that would lead me to think that means very much - it was always just build tons of ships, threaten me, flood my space with ships, lose every single goddamned one to minimal casualties on my part, and not ever understand "hey I'm doing something fuckass dumb".

I'm going to have to disagree with you.  One of the most surprising, and coolest, events that has happened to me in against an AI in any game was when I started to use my usual tactic against the GalCiv2 AI and got called out on it.

 When I first started to play GalCiv2 I had just gotten off a Civilization kick.  My strategy at the time was to keep friendly relations with my soon-to-be-enemy as I built up my army.  I would then get my army as close to their cities (in this case planets) as would be allowed (which meant the borders here).  Once my forces were in placed I'd declare war or take hostile action, usually ensuring a quick and easy take down.

So I'm lining up my forces along the border while playing on, I believe, easy or second-from-easy difficulty.  All of a sudden a pop up appears with the face of the leader that I was about to attack. The message said something along the lines of: "I notice you're lining up your forces along my borders.  This is obviously a preparation for an attack of some sort.  If the difficulty setting was higher I would take this as an offensive gesture and respond accordingly.  However, due to current difficulty settings I am unable to react correctly to the situation."

I was stunned.  It was the first time an AI has ever called me out on a tactic like that.

Indeed, Galciv2. has far the best AI what I ever seen. If you play vs. 4+ AI races, the game is very hard. The 2.0 patch is coming soon for ToA, the AI will be upgraded again.
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IndonesiaWarMinister

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Re: Stardock's upcoming turn based fantasy strategy game
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2008, 08:25:46 am »

Use more CPU time for the A.I.
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Rollory

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Re: Stardock's upcoming turn based fantasy strategy game
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2008, 12:01:04 am »

So I'm lining up my forces along the border while playing on, I believe, easy or second-from-easy difficulty.  All of a sudden a pop up appears with the face of the leader that I was about to attack. The message said something along the lines of: "I notice you're lining up your forces along my borders.  This is obviously a preparation for an attack of some sort.  If the difficulty setting was higher I would take this as an offensive gesture and respond accordingly.  However, due to current difficulty settings I am unable to react correctly to the situation."

That's a terrible example.  The AIs in Alpha Centauri did that (and IMO did a better job of it too) (and Alpha Centauri came out well before GalCiv).  It just doesn't qualify as anything special to me - for one thing, it's SUCH a lame thing for the player to do - hey look, we have these big armies next to all your stuff, but of course we're at peace, don't worry - the fact that the AI responds to it is sort of a basic requirement, it's just part of being able to RECOGNIZE that a state of war actually exists and to act appropriately, regardless of whether all the punctuation is correct on the paperwork.  It would be just as bad for the AI not to respond to outright destruction of some of its units; the fact that it does respond to that is nothing big.

I'm talking about an AI that could actually interpret ongoing results in combat and draw correct conclusions, such as: "the matchup of my ship A vs his ship X tends to result in so-and-so, while my ship B vs his ship X results in this-and-that, THEREFORE since he has so many ship Xs I should be building more ships with these particular characteristics" ... or, "the last five times I sent troop transports loaded with soldiers to that planet, they got blown out of the sky.  I should stop, and put a heavy combat force in orbit and keep it there for a while, and certainly not send it anywhere else until a set of heavily-escorted troop transports arrives".  In other words, actual dynamic analysis based on relatively simple rules that actually changes behavior in important and challenging ways for the player.

The Alpha Centauri AI really is my baseline - anything that doesn't do as well as it did is unacceptable, and I certainly hope for improvements.  For one thing they are more capable of recognizing when they're getting their asses kicked on the battlefield and of suing for peace before taking crippling losses of important things, like bases, as opposed to unimportant things, like troops.  In GC the AIs would seem to look at the monumental number of ships they had and the paltry number I had and decide the war was going well; the fact that they were taking hundreds of times the losses never seemed to register.
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Tormy

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Re: Stardock's upcoming turn based fantasy strategy game
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2008, 07:29:11 pm »

Rollory are you playing with the latest version of GC 2 - ToA? The AI is really one of the best what Ive ever seen in singleplayer games, maybe Civ 4 - BTS combined with the latest FfH 2. mod AI is as good as the latest ToA AI.
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umiman

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Re: Stardock's upcoming turn based fantasy strategy game
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2008, 07:44:37 pm »

Yeah, I have no clue what Rollory is talking about either. Because the AI in GalCiv 2 can do everything he claims and more. It does adapt. In fact, I've seen AI band together in a huge alliance to defeat one super race who got ultra powerful, then after defeating him, start to dissolve in a series of conflicts and distrust.

Might not sound like much, but that's stupidly impressive for AI.

Here's a story done by PC Gamer on how incredible the AI is: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=161570&site=pcg

wallish

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Re: Stardock's upcoming turn based fantasy strategy game
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2008, 10:49:27 pm »

Yeah, I have no clue what Rollory is talking about either. Because the AI in GalCiv 2 can do everything he claims and more. It does adapt. In fact, I've seen AI band together in a huge alliance to defeat one super race who got ultra powerful, then after defeating him, start to dissolve in a series of conflicts and distrust.

Might not sound like much, but that's stupidly impressive for AI.

Here's a story done by PC Gamer on how incredible the AI is: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=161570&site=pcg


The only thing I agree with him on is that some of the more militaristic races like to invade planets.  If an invasion fails, whilst adjusting their strategies, they seem to bug out and continue to attempt to invade that planet for a little bit.  It happens in that article.  Seems like the hardcore "let's kill 'em" guys learn slower than the other about when to quit (as it should be).
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Tormy

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Re: Stardock's upcoming turn based fantasy strategy game
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2008, 09:21:53 am »

Yeah, I have no clue what Rollory is talking about either. Because the AI in GalCiv 2 can do everything he claims and more. It does adapt. In fact, I've seen AI band together in a huge alliance to defeat one super race who got ultra powerful, then after defeating him, start to dissolve in a series of conflicts and distrust.

Might not sound like much, but that's stupidly impressive for AI.

Here's a story done by PC Gamer on how incredible the AI is: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=161570&site=pcg


Yeah and that happens in Civ 4. - BtS also.  :)
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wallish

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Re: Stardock's upcoming turn based fantasy strategy game
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2008, 06:07:09 pm »

So, a question to those who enjoy Galactic Civilization 2 and own one (or both) of the expansions: are they worth it?  Currently I only own the original but having recently gotten back into the game I am thinking about buying the expansion bundle (digital download only kind of sucks though).  Are the big differences (atmospheres, mining, and spies I think) really big additions or am I not really missing much by not having the expansions?
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Mephansteras

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Re: Stardock's upcoming turn based fantasy strategy game
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2008, 06:11:33 pm »

I have the Dark Lords expansion, but not the latest one. Having never played the game without it, I'm not 100% sure but I do like all of the features that it says it added in. So, I'd say it was worth it.
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umiman

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Re: Stardock's upcoming turn based fantasy strategy game
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2008, 06:59:11 pm »

Wallish: This is probably not very helpful, but the only reason motivating me to get the latest expansion was the ability to destroy stars with a giant laser. :-\

But yeah, the game generally gets better and better with the expansions as not only do they add features, they also fix bugs and make the AI even better and so on and so forth. Furthermore, you do need to expansions to get the latest updates (which are like expansion packs themselves with the amount of content they have).

wallish

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Re: Stardock's upcoming turn based fantasy strategy game
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2008, 08:17:32 pm »

Wallish: This is probably not very helpful, but the only reason motivating me to get the latest expansion was the ability to destroy stars with a giant laser. :-\

Not only is that helpful, they should've put that on the box: "Galactic Civilzations 2: Blow Up Stars with Giant Lasers Edition"

But, are some (if not all) the features added to Dark Avatar (i.e. asteroids, unique races, custom enemies, planet types and mega-events, etc) available in Twilight?  If I own both will I be able to start a game that utilizes the features of both expansions?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 08:35:50 pm by wallish »
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Tormy

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Re: Stardock's upcoming turn based fantasy strategy game
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2008, 06:50:34 am »

Yes ToA has all the features of DL and more. Better AI + additional goodies. The 2.0 patch is coming out soon btw with even more new stuff + better AI again.  :) Oh boy...Stardock's gme support is just awesome.  8)
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wallish

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Re: Stardock's upcoming turn based fantasy strategy game
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2008, 09:06:19 am »

Yes ToA has all the features of DL and more. Better AI + additional goodies. The 2.0 patch is coming out soon btw with even more new stuff + better AI again.  :) Oh boy...Stardock's gme support is just awesome.  8)
Did you mean Dread Lords or Dark Avatar (1st expansion)?

If the latter: So, other than the campaign, is there even a reason to get Dark Avatar?
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Tormy

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Re: Stardock's upcoming turn based fantasy strategy game
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2008, 10:50:12 am »

Yes ToA has all the features of DL and more. Better AI + additional goodies. The 2.0 patch is coming out soon btw with even more new stuff + better AI again.  :) Oh boy...Stardock's gme support is just awesome.  8)
Did you mean Dread Lords or Dark Avatar (1st expansion)?

If the latter: So, other than the campaign, is there even a reason to get Dark Avatar?

Ah sorry I meant Dark Avatar of course.

Dark Avatar overview:
http://www.galciv2.com/darkavatar/

ToA overview:
http://www.galciv2.com/twilight/

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