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[John Johnston]

Excuse me, there's no reason for personal attacks - in fact, they are against policy.

The thread title is a personal attack against many players, one of whom is Blacken; criticism would perhaps be better directed at the OP before Blacken?

[duro]

If hacking the popcap number in the init is considered cheating, then changing your DF window dimensions is, too.

If you need dwarves to kill, immigration is only one possible way. Just (cheating alert!) hack the raws to make extremely fast-breeding hillbilly dorfs, including cake and sodomy, and entertaining tantrum spirals because one dwarf's grandpa and son (in one person) died in the lav^S^S^Sadventure pit. Bonus points for having multiple clans that begin to fight against another when the first tantrum kicks in.

Also, if your first language is English, I would be extremely worried...

To even only take this into consideration would make poor Duro extremely worried. Also, sometimes accidentally Babel魚類 is making very bad job at tongue, seriously but you never know what right so. Erm, yeah, you see. Indeed we are a happy international community - just don't ask, don't tell.

I think he's Hungarian.

ditto

[Spoggerific]

The thread title is a personal attack against many players, one of whom is Blacken; criticism would perhaps be better directed at the OP before Blacken?

My post was, more than anything, a joke intended for those who edit Wikipedia on a regular basis, but not solely that; I was asking people to be nice to the OP. I dunno. It just seemed like they were ganging up on him. However, you do have a point that the thread title was a little ad hominem... Anyway.


One of my favorite things about this game is creating elaborate deathtraps for anything, be it dwarves, captured goblins, traders, or nobles. I was thinking about building a series of drawbridges, all a few Z levels above ground, which would fling something from one drawbridge to the next. If the thing missed, it fell to a painful death. If it hit the drawbridge, I would pull another lever, until the target in question died.

[Pie]

What is interesting is that nobody has yet contested the title and claimed that it IS imaginative to set pop caps rather than kill off the immigrant waves... People are merely stating why they think pop-caps are important/killing them off is a pain.

[duro]

What is interesting is that nobody has yet contested the title and claimed that it IS imaginative to set pop caps rather than kill off the immigrant waves...

Well, neither is.

People are merely stating why they think pop-caps are important/killing them off is a pain.

People are a little pissed and/or trolling, just like you. Not really that constructive, but the best result an online forum can yield when posts come in to fast. I think it's just a matter of what you want DF to be. Killing dwarves over and over again can become a pain in the ass if it disturbs your own (subjective) goals of the game. These goals do not necessarily contain the murder of dwarfs, no matter how much fun it is for you and me. For some people it may become nothing but repetitive work, so no fun in there. And being forced to come up with imaginative ways to have the killing being entertaining is no reason to play a game - one could write a book instead.

[Krash]

My post was, more than anything, a joke intended for those who edit Wikipedia on a regular basis, but not solely that;

Damn, you sure got me

What is interesting is that nobody has yet contested the title and claimed that it IS imaginative to set pop caps rather than kill off the immigrant waves... People are merely stating why they think pop-caps are important/killing them off is a pain.

Maybe it's because people don't feel like defending their playing style.  Their playing style they chose because they, you know, like having fun the way they want.

In other words, we certainly don't have to defend anything at all

[Tormy]

I think he's Arabian, his name suggests so...

Nop he is from Hungary, I have no idea that why is he using an arabian name at all, but ah well..

[Pie]

What is interesting is that nobody has yet contested the title and claimed that it IS imaginative to set pop caps rather than kill off the immigrant waves...

Well, neither is.

People are merely stating why they think pop-caps are important/killing them off is a pain.

People are a little pissed and/or trolling, just like you. Not really that constructive, but the best result an online forum can yield when posts come in to fast. I think it's just a matter of what you want DF to be. Killing dwarves over and over again can become a pain in the ass if it disturbs your own (subjective) goals of the game. These goals do not necessarily contain the murder of dwarfs, no matter how much fun it is for you and me. For some people it may become nothing but repetitive work, so no fun in there. And being forced to come up with imaginative ways to have the killing being entertaining is no reason to play a game - one could write a book instead.

Haha - forced imagination. I'm not "forcing" people to be imaginative, I am stating my opinion - that people who set their pop-caps are unimaginative, at least in terms of how they are dealing with their immigrants - if you don't want immigrants, then you should find an in-game way of getting rid of immigrants. I was saying that killing them was a good option.

I'm not entirely sure what your point was when you said "one could write a book instead"... I'm pretty sure you can say that about basically everything...

Also, I am not pissed, so I guess by your logic I must be trolling. I guess the reason I am so against the editing of the init file for reasons of comfort is because it is along the lines of young kids who cheat on games just so they can feel the power of the end result in the game. So you want the end result of less immigrants but you are unwilling to perform the work required to achieve that (for one reason or another), so you edit the game so it suits you better. Maybe I am just weird like that.

IT IS FUN TO KILL DWARVES IN INVENTIVE WAYS.

I think what you're trying to say is "I, personally, think it is fun to kill dwarves in inventive ways."  As you have no doubt noticed, some people disagree with that sentiment, and you will have no luck attempting to change their minds, especially if you persist in saying they have no imagination etc.

Personally, I don't kill (random) dwarfs in deathtraps for giggles, because it just doesn't seem to me to be the right thing to do, and I suspect I don't find it as funny as you clearly do; there's plenty of goblins, kittens, and so on in the world to disintegrate without resorting to dwarfs, anyway, and if you absolutely have to kill dwarfs, kill the ones who cause problems by mandating wierd stuff.  A migrant dwarf can eventually become anything you like.  A noble can't.  My fortresses are population capped at whatever level gives me a reasonably consistent 30fps, which is roughly somewhere between 100 and 150 dwarfs.

I do not have a problem catering for any number of immigrants at any stage in building a fortress these days, really, the whole "problem" is a bit of a non-issue so far as I'm concerned.

What do I mean by that?  There is no "immigrant problem" that needs to be "solved" by random slaughter.  If you want to randomly slaughter dwarfs, go right ahead and do it, have fun, DF is for certain partly about blood and gore, but you're not "solving" a "problem" cause there ain't no problem to solve.

I am not going to preface everything that I say with "in my opinion" or "I think". It is fairly obvious to most what constitutes an opinion and what a fact.

When you say there is no "immigrant problem", you are kidding yourself. There is no "immigrant problem" for you because you HAVE CAPPED YOUR POPULATION. However, if you had not capped your population you would have FPS trouble. Which is a problem. And killing immigrants would solve that problem. Clogging up your fort is a problem, killing immigrants is one solution.

[texmith]

As far as I'm concerned deliberately killing your own dwarfs is cheating. Far more so than editing game options.

I imagine my dwarfs would get rather upset if they were instructed to contruct traps to deliberately kill their own kinfolk. Such metagaming shows an obvious lack of immersion born from a lack of imagination.

[Mohreb el Yasim]

yes indeed i am hungarien, dislexic and i use mohreb becouse it is the only the pseudo i use anywhere on the internet(it comes from a RL RP with friends where that was my characters name, it hasen't have a sentence in arabien however)
and for the subject:
ok if you consider that it is fun, and it needs imagiantion to kill imigrants you can play like that, there are some others how don't see it in the same way, they like all dwarfs they have and until there isn't a better solution to make story-wise setting to prevent them comming if not needed, intended we will use the init setting to prevent their nonsens comming. I personaly see it more dwarfy then a band of dwarf how just try to kill any newcommers. However it don't make me feel neither cheater nor a damned laisy. just please, PLEASE try to be less agressive in your postes so anyone can keep his calm and discuss/or not about the real subject you want to.
for example:
"Why pop caps are for people with no imagination." ->"Interesting ways of killing off imigrants"

"So I propose everyone stop setting pop caps unnaturally!" -> it is just too robust. you say to people you don't even know what to do. sorry anyone has his habbits and are not asking your opignon what to do.

i could continue to explain why
"I said you had no imagination" ,
"Because it is funny, more akin to playing the game rather than cheating it,"
are to agressive but i think you are not to stupid to see the point. just never forget internet is for anyone people may not be on the same opignon as you so evit to be categoric.

Thanks for considering my words, and i hope i could help you to brigthen the point why your style was rejected by some of us.

[Pie]

As far as I'm concerned deliberately killing your own dwarfs is cheating. Far more so than editing game options.

I imagine my dwarfs would get rather upset if they were instructed to contruct traps to deliberately kill their own kinfolk. Such metagaming shows an obvious lack of immersion born from a lack of imagination.

What if the dwarf in charge was evil?

Put it this way, how many times in the REAL WORLD have people been killed by their own people/kings/people in charge. Now, how many times has THE FABRIC OF THE UNIVERSE been torn asunder, changing the whole way the world works.

Now consider your statement about which is more akin to "cheating".

Oh, and I never mentioned my imagination. For all you know, killing dwarves in that way could be the only imaginative thing I do. I could be boring as fuck in every other part of my life. It does not impact on the validity of my argument.

And I've changed the title to reflect more accurately the main point of discourse.

[texmith]

As far as I'm concerned deliberately killing your own dwarfs is cheating. Far more so than editing game options.

I imagine my dwarfs would get rather upset if they were instructed to contruct traps to deliberately kill their own kinfolk. Such metagaming shows an obvious lack of immersion born from a lack of imagination.

What if the dwarf in charge was evil?

Put it this way, how many times in the REAL WORLD have people been killed by their own people/kings/people in charge. Now, how many times has THE FABRIC OF THE UNIVERSE been torn asunder, changing the whole way the world works.

Now consider your statement about which is more akin to "cheating".

Oh, and I never mentioned my imagination. For all you know, killing dwarves in that way could be the only imaginative thing I do. I could be boring as fuck in every other part of my life. It does not impact on the validity of my argument.

Well it seems you can imagine an evil dwarf in charge, but can you not imagine a non-evil dwarf in charge? And can you not see why killing your own dwarves might not be an attractive gameplay option for some people?

Just to be clear: I have no problem with you killing your imigrants, but I find it a bit short sighted that you can't see why I wouldn't want to kill mine.

[Pie]

As far as I'm concerned deliberately killing your own dwarfs is cheating. Far more so than editing game options.

I imagine my dwarfs would get rather upset if they were instructed to contruct traps to deliberately kill their own kinfolk. Such metagaming shows an obvious lack of immersion born from a lack of imagination.

What if the dwarf in charge was evil?

Put it this way, how many times in the REAL WORLD have people been killed by their own people/kings/people in charge. Now, how many times has THE FABRIC OF THE UNIVERSE been torn asunder, changing the whole way the world works.

Now consider your statement about which is more akin to "cheating".

Oh, and I never mentioned my imagination. For all you know, killing dwarves in that way could be the only imaginative thing I do. I could be boring as fuck in every other part of my life. It does not impact on the validity of my argument.

Well it seems you can imagine an evil dwarf in charge, but can you not imagine a non-evil dwarf in charge? And can you not see why killing your own dwarves might not be an attractive gameplay option for some people?

Just to be clear: I have no problem with you killing your imigrants, but I find it a bit short sighted that you can't see why I wouldn't want to kill mine.

I see why you wouldn't want to kill yours. That just means it is harder for you to do these things properly. In my view, either you want to keep them alive and deal with the consequences of the population increasing rapidly, or you kill them and keep the population down. In a real situation, a good dwarven leader would not have the option to bend space time and so would have to kill some for the good of all.

[texmith]

I don't see how its 'bending space time'... as if any conceivable fortress of dwarves in this fictional universe would certainly have a never-ending stream of dwarf migrants.

Can you not imagine that its telling the greater city of dwarfs your population limit? 'Don't send any more dwarves please'. If you like, you could imagine it as: 'Don't send any more dwarves please or they will be killed mercilessly'. Just like your evil fortress but without the brainless unwanted dwarves who turn up to be killed.

[Earthquake Damage]

What is interesting is that nobody has yet contested the title and claimed that it IS imaginative to set pop caps rather than kill off the immigrant waves...

An imaginative person does not necessarily (in fact, rarely) does only those things that are imaginative (who makes the determination, anyway?).  The use of a pop cap says nothing about the imagination of the person in question.  Really, the implication of the title is that you are superior in some way for not using a cap.  Arrogance does not foster pleasant conversation.

I am stating my opinion - that <group of people> are <generalization>...

Okay.

young kids who cheat on games just so they can feel the power of the end result in the game.

Fun fact:  Not all who cheat are young kids.

Fun fact:  Not all who cheat do so to "feel powerful."

Fun fact:  Some people are more interested in the storytelling than the game mechanics and "challenge."

That last one doesn't directly apply to Dwarf Fortress, but you get the idea.  At least I hope you do.

Now, how many times has THE FABRIC OF THE UNIVERSE been torn asunder, changing the whole way the world works.

We're discussing a game in which gigantic bronze statues can walk around smashing things and boasting about their deeds.

Oh, and I never mentioned my imagination. For all you know, killing dwarves in that way could be the only imaginative thing I do. I could be boring as fuck in every other part of my life. It does not impact on the validity of my argument.

That does not mean that other people are strictly unimaginative simply because their imagination is not expressed in the same way as yours.

I see why you wouldn't want to kill yours. That just means it is harder for you to do these things properly.

Do what things properly?  What's proper?  We're talking about a damn game.  A sandbox game at that.  There is no proper.

In a real situation, a good dwarven leader would not have the option to bend space time and so would have to kill some for the good of all.

lolwut?