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[Gantolandon]

Could one of the followers and one of the enemies stand up and say why is it such a big deal?

As for me, I see nothing wrong in this idea. It's a simulation after all and an architect has to consider such prosaic matters. I can't just understand this level of enthusiasm or enmity towards this thread...

[Footkerchief]

As a supporter, I like the idea for exactly the reasons you give -- improving the simulation and making a plumbing system more useful.  But it's not like THE GAME WILL NEVER BE COMPLETE WITHOUT IT or anything. 

[Erom]

It's funny that this topic generates such strong opinion.

I admit, I was totally grossed out at the very suggestion at first, and was about to rail against it, but the more I thought about it - it would have to be implemented carefully, but I think the fact that so much of ancient economy and craftsmanship was based on waste matter, the more I realized this would actually be a totally fitting thing to add.

I'd still like the actual representations of waste to be abstracted somewhat, because I'm squeemish, but how's this for a Power Goal:

Urist McAlchemist collects urine and boils it in the alchemy lab, eventually extracting the vials of white phosphorous (this is somewhat historical - it is used in one of the proposed recipes for Greek Fire). White phosphorous glows a weird blue-green when exposed to oxygen, and will ignite and burn explosively with air. A vial of white phosphorous can be thrown and will ignite the square it hits in green fire, terrifying your enemies and lighting them of fire.

[Pilsu]

Could one of the followers and one of the enemies stand up and say why is it such a big deal?

As a supporter I move to present the indisputable fact that drowning elves in dwarven feces is awesome

[Tack]

Nah, i find it wrong. Flinging it into advancing goblin sieges via catapult, to spread disease and epic humiliation. that'd be cool.

[Anticheese]

Why the heck would you want this? Half the point of ASCII displays is that you imagine what is going on based on the symbols.

If you really want it in the game and can't stand how dwarven farmers do not have realistic bodily functions and can set up a farm with no fertilization, then feel free to imagine them spreading your fortresses waste over the soil.

Just don't make us experience it.

Oh, and another thing. If the little left toe of a cave lizard produces enough miasma to completely drown out a room, imagine what 200, 50 or even 7 dwarves will make the map look like. If this insane suggestion comes to fruition then we will not be able to see anything save for a purple cloud - All because someone wanted urine and feces in the game.

Seriously guys. I'm fine with vomit because it fits in well with the whole "seriously injured cave dwelling alcoholic" thing we have going on, but the second you make me have to dig long-drops for my little hairy men is when you've made the game a lot less fun in favor of "realism" and micromanagement.

Don't..Just don't.

[Dwaref]

Why the heck would you want this? Half the point of ASCII displays is that you imagine what is going on based on the symbols.

Yeah. I agree. It's half the point.
Imagination itself doesn't cut it though. ASCII graphics or not, toady has set upon himself to create the most advanced game ever, and we're all lining up and supporting this endeavor. It's not some rogue-like, but an honest-to-god attempt to recreate the formation of a society, with all its implications. I for one wish that exponential growth of any settlement should carry with it it's share of debilitating side-effects. Sanitation to prevent disease being one.
I realize that you're the kind of person who isn't quite comfortable with the visions of this enterprise, but you've got to face that DF is going to change a lot and remove a lot of the features that you currently support, whatever they may be. I have a sneaking suspicion though that your 'features' are our exploits and/or ruin 'our' immersion.

The thing about the miasma isn't a feature but should actually be worked on.

[Silverionmox]

Some background: http://www.slate.com/id/2201466/entry/2201467/

[Osmosis Jones]

I just realised this thread was lacking something;

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

First verse:

Great Mighty Poo:
Ahem-hem. Mi mi mi mi miiiii …
I am the Great Mighty Poo
and I'm going to throw my shit at you.
A huge supply of tish comes from my chocolate starfish.
How about some scat, you little twat?

Second verse:

Great Mighty Poo:
Do you really think you'll survive in here?
You don't seem to know which creek you're in.
Sweet corn is the only thing that makes it through my rear.
How d'you think I keep this lovely grin?
(Have some more caviar!)

Third verse:

Great Mighty Poo:
Now I'm really getting rather mad.
You're like a niggly tiggly shitty little tag-nut.
When I knock you out with all my bab,
I'm going to take your head and ram it up my butt!
Conker: Your butt?
Great Mighty Poo: My butt!
Conker: Your butt?!
Great Mighty Poo: That's right, my butt!
Conker: Err …!
Great Mighty Poo: My butt!
Conker: Agh!
Great Mighty Poo: My Buuuuuuuuutt!

Final quote:

Great Mighty Poo: Ah! You cursed squirrel! Look what you've done! I'm flushing! I'm flushing! Oh, what a world, what a world! Who'd have thought a good little squirrel like you could destroy my beautiful clagginess! Ah! I'm going! Oh! Ahh! No! Aaaaaaah!
Conker: Huh huh! Now that's what I call a bowel movement!

Thankyou, carry on.

[dizzyelk]

Poo poetry? I might could do that...

*ahem*
In days of olde,
When knights were bold,
And toilets not invented.

A man would lay his load,
Upon the road,
And walk away contented.

[Leerok the Lacerta]

Urist has been miserable lately. He had stepped in soil lately. He has had soil thrown at him by an unhappy citizen lately. He was forced to drink soiled water recently. He was nauseated by soiled water lately. He had the pleasure of throwing soil lately. He was forced to soil a rough cave floor lately.

[Krash]

Don't..Just don't.

[GaGrin]

If someone can explain to me how this would be worse than much of the stuff than is already in the histories and is planned for the future I'd be grateful.

Y'know soon our dwarves will have rotting wounds and various nasty diseases to put up with.  Vemons too.

I really think, given the economic and social impact of the hygeine that's being suggested the game is missing something without it.  Not cruically perhaps, and I'll probably still continue attempting to make sewer/aquaduct-type systems out of stubborness (not that i've succeed yet).

Small outdoor/near surface communities shouldn't worry about it anyway.  But its as fundamental as breathing, eating and sleeping all of which are already ingame.

[Footkerchief]

The seminal Bay 12 masterpieces Fuck You and I'm Voting for Myself should be required playing for anyone who posts in this thread.

[Nogford]

I have an idea to make everyone happy.

1) Make it init configurable. If set to no, then all sewage related features are not accessible in game.
2) Make it simple. Here's how it could work.

- The latrine is a 1x1 building that must be over an empty space, like a well. It must be activity zoned.
- In the absence of a latrine, the dwarves will defecate outside and receive a bad thought.
- Using the latrine would cause the tile below to become 1/7 full of "sewage", or "waste", or whatever you want to call it.
- The waste would disappear over time like water. It might take longer to disappear on a stone tile than a soil tile (for obvious reasons). Sewage pipes would only really be necessary if the fort was very highly populated.
- Sewage is treated much like vomit in that it gives off bad thoughts. It also creates miasma if there is enough of it (over 3/7?), although this is only an issue if you have an open pit in your fort rather than latrine.

This wouldn't take much to implement and should be interesting to please the people who did want it implemented.