Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 17

Author Topic: Feces and Urine  (Read 36242 times)

Guy Montag

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Feces and Urine
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2008, 10:56:35 pm »

If we could designated latrine areas, i'm all for positioning them over various noble's beds.

Which could make gameplay more interesting... I dunno if dwarves should produce a 1/7 layer of liquid "Dwarf Droppings" or it should be some kinda object. "Pile of Dwarf Shit"

I'm guessing the former, but then I have to wonder how it could be programmed for Urist McMayor to be disgusted or offended by a liquid.

I'm also thinking if you never designate latrine areas or build buckets, there would be 200 Urists worth of shit all outside the entrance of the fort if thats the default place they go to crap when they don't have a proper latrine area. I'd think going in the bushes might produce a minor bad thought or something... which complicates matters even further if Dwarves get happy thoughts like "..conducted business in a ledgendary latrine lately".
Logged

Zemat

  • Bay Watcher
  • Zemat, programmer, cancels coding: Too insane.
    • View Profile
Re: Feces and Urine
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2008, 11:14:35 pm »

Add this suggestion to the Infinite Suggestion Voting System and let democracy sort it out.
Logged
You too can help bring to life the RogueLife Project!

Silverionmox

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Feces and Urine
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2008, 05:58:27 am »

There could be a toilet, the size of 1 square, built from a stone block and a hatch cover. The advantage over a grate would be almost no miasma, of course.
Logged
Dwarf Fortress cured my savescumming.

Tormy

  • Bay Watcher
  • I shall not pass?
    • View Profile
Re: Feces and Urine
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2008, 06:14:25 am »

Sewers...and what would happen to the wastewater?  ;D We should just lead the "sewer pipes" into the river or something?
Frankly, this is a very ridicolous suggestion, but I can understand that some people would like to see something like this in-game. More funny moments, eh?  :D
Logged

catpaw

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Feces and Urine
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2008, 08:42:44 am »

We should just lead the "sewer pipes" into the river or something?

Well thats what the romans did... But I see how this problematic within a dwarf fort that is subterran to start with. This is yet another area where there public dwarf legends don't give us any hints.

I'd think dwarves would use pots with covers, and after when full drag them out of the fort somewhere outside to pile... after a while it would turn to earth they'd use for farming... Very developed fortresses could have an underground water flushed system with pumps, where the water at the flows into a catch basin... where the remains are gathered, when there is enough the dwarves redirect the water into anohter basin, and use the sediments of the first again for farming... or dump them outside, or burn them in the furnance...
Logged

Chthonic

  • Bay Watcher
  • Whispers subterrene.
    • View Profile
Re: Feces and Urine
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2008, 09:06:08 am »

I'm actually in favor of this, as tackily as it was proposed.  Digging cesspits for the fortress is reasonable.  Building latrines is reasonable.  Even having buckets and a waste dump site is pretty reasonable (new labor: waste hauling).  Let them produce miasma like any other refuse.  Let them fill up with a pseudoliquid like magma (call it "filth" or something if you don't want to be descriptive) that can be bucketed out and used as fertilizer or dumped into a moving stream and be flushed away (making downstream water potentially fouled).  If you don't want to use the biowaste as fertilizer at all, build sewers in your fortress and either run them out to a stream for dumping, into a chasm, pump it to the surface, or just build a mammoth underground waste cistern.  Either way--more huge engineering projects!  And a role for sewers!  Seriously--who ever heard of a fortress into which intrepid invaders could _not_ enter via the labyrinthine sewer system??  And you could even put crocodiles down there!!
Logged

catpaw

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Feces and Urine
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2008, 09:14:07 am »

Just to mention, while feces can be pretty fertilizing if "prepared", urine is generally not. Most planets hate urine... Thats why IRL they have hugh problems with this trees at big festivals, since you know how men are. If too many do this against the same tree, it might even die.
Logged

baby_peacock

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Feces and Urine
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2008, 10:32:03 am »

Just to mention, while feces can be pretty fertilizing if "prepared", urine is generally not. Most planets hate urine... Thats why IRL they have hugh problems with this trees at big festivals, since you know how men are. If too many do this against the same tree, it might even die.

Actually, urine is an excellent nitrous fertilizer. The problem is that it's too concentrated raw and needs to be diluted before used. Otherwise, it will do more damage than good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine#Fertilizers
Logged

Dwaref

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Feces and Urine
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2008, 10:51:56 am »

Just to mention, while feces can be pretty fertilizing if "prepared", urine is generally not. Most planets hate urine... Thats why IRL they have hugh problems with this trees at big festivals, since you know how men are. If too many do this against the same tree, it might even die.

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine
Other uses

[edit] Ancient uses

    * The ancient Romans used urine as a bleaching agent for cleaning clothes and teeth.
    * In Scotland, it was used to wash wool to prevent shrinking.

[edit] Fertilizers

Urine contains large amounts of urea, an excellent source of nitrogen for plants. As such it is a useful accelerator for compost. Urea is much less toxic than ammonia and is formed by the indirect combination of the byproducts of deamination (2 NH3 molecules) and cellular respiration (1 CO2 molecule). Other components include various inorganic salts such as sodium chloride (sodium discharge is called natriuresis).

[edit] Gardening

Urine has applications in gardening and agriculture as a fertilizer. Gardeners often recommend a dilution of 10-20 parts water to one of urine for application to plants and flower beds during the growing season; undiluted urine can chemically burn the roots of some species. Urine typically contains more than 50% of the nitrogen and phosphorus and potassium content of whole sewage, and is widely considered as good as or better than commercially-available chemical fertilisers or stabilised sludge from sewage plants. Urine is also used in composting to increase the nitrogen content of the mulch, accelerating the composting process and increasing its final nutrient values.

[edit] Food-crop agriculture

Urine is also being actively considered as a fertilizer for use in food-crop agriculture in developed countries. Studies into its feasibility and safety usually indicate that it is an acceptable alternative to chemical fertilisers and stabilised sludge. However, the technology to implement its use on a large scale has not been developed, and is considered too expensive. There are also concerns over its safety regarding the potential for transmitting infectious disease and refluxing xenobiotic compounds (associated with toilet-cleaning products and prescribed drugs expelled in urine) in the human food chain. Proponents of adopting urine for this use usually claim the risks to be negligible or acceptable, and point out that sewage causes more environmental problems when it is treated and disposed of compared with when it is used as a resource. Critics generally agree that more research is needed into how the resource is to be collected, processed and handled.

A few people use urine as a crop fertilizer. These include organic farming cooperatives and eco-villages where special urine-diverting toilets with collecting tanks are installed. Many of these also employ concepts such as greywater irrigation and the composting of fecal matter. Many are the subject of ongoing feasibility studies sanctioned by governments and private organisations. These people generally reject safety concerns over its use on food crops provided that it is used with common sense. For example, application to fruit trees is considered safer than to bushes and especially root crops. It is also considered sensible to cease application at a safe interval before harvesting. However, the use of urine for this purpose is even rarer than its use on ornamental gardens.

In developing countries, the application of pure urine to crops is also rare. However, whole, untreated sewage, termed night soil, is often applied to crops and is considered essential. This practice has been applied, along with crop rotation schemes, for thousands of years.

In Japan and Nepal, urine can be used in small scale aquaculture.

[edit] Survival uses

    See also: Urophagia

Shipwrecked or people otherwise adrift at sea for long periods often resort to drinking their urine when no rainwater is available, seawater being unsuitable. People stranded in deserts often also drank urine to prevent life-threatening dehydration. This desperate measure, however achieves little as urine is as dehydrating as saltwater.

During World War I, the Germans experimented with numerous poisonous gases for use during war. After the first German chlorine gas attacks, Allied troops were supplied with masks of cotton pads that had been soaked in urine. It was believed that the ammonia in the pad neutralized the chlorine. These pads were held over the face until the soldiers could escape from the poisonous fumes, although it is now known that chlorine gas reacts with urine to produce toxic fumes (see chlorine and Use of poison gas in World War I).

Urine has also been historically used as an antiseptic. In times of war, when other antiseptics were unavailable, urine, the darker the better, was utilized on open wounds as an antibacterial.[citation needed]

Urban myth states that urine works well against jellyfish stings, although it is at best ineffective and in some cases may make the injury worse.[5][6][7]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but urine is an excellent fertilizer, with the exception that you have to dilute it somewhat with water if you want to use it raw. I also think that raging drunks pissing down trees may have above-average urine in terms of chemicality(from both dehydration and alcohol content).

Worse yet, I now also know that it can be used to clean clothes and brush your teeth, the more chemical and more alcoholic the better i presume. It'll probably be great for, say scrubbing floors as well.

Seems like we'll use the cistern for watering the fields instead of the river flood.
Also, if we implement this, i suggest we introduce untouchables. http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=24932.15
Quote from: Dwaref
Also, peasants aren't IMO low enough, i think we need untouchables as well!

Dalits include leather-workers (called chamar), carcass handlers (called mahar), poor farmers and landless labourers, night soil scavengers (called bhangi), street handcrafting people, folk artists, street cleaners, sweepers (chura), washermen (dhobi), etc.
There, now just apply unhappy thought when having to meet one of these guys!
I realize that a good deal of the professions are already ingame.
There is probably a REASON why 'landless laborers' and 'poor farmers' were considered untouchables, given what fertilizer they use to flood the plains with. Not to mention 'washermen' :o(big tub of urine and soap). Street cleaners, hmm.
In extremely old cities (mid-eleventh century and earlier), the concept of 'sewer' was further reduced to a simple trench in the middle of the street; any waste would be thrown into the street, where rainwater would (eventually) wash it away. If the population were extremely lucky.
Oh yeah, cleaning/sweeping streets were also poop-related!

Tanning and carcasshandling one can assume is because of the fact that hauling rotting bodies around and flaying them for leather in a race to beat the maggots to it, isn't very nice.

Folk artists and street handcrafters, though. I think those two are the only ones of the untouchable jobs that are not about performing neccecary but disgusting jobs for the community. They're basically gypsies i guess, and just social unwanteds by the community.

Just introduce a 'smell' or 'stink' mechanic, and you won't even have to flag these social outcasts!
By extension , their children and sposes could be cast out as well, and create an ideal growing ground for criminal dwarves.
Logged
He is somewhat reserved. He prefers to be alone. He doesn't need thrills or risks in life. He is never optimistic or enthusiastic about anything. He has a fertile imagination. He is open-minded to new ideas. He is put off by authority and tradition. He is very straightforward with others. He is very disorganized. He thinks it is incredibly important to strive for excellence. He has very little self-discipline. He takes time when making decisions. He doesn't really care about anything anymore.

Mikademus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Pirate ninja dwarves for great justice
    • View Profile
Re: Feces and Urine
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2008, 11:17:04 am »

Just to mention, while feces can be pretty fertilizing if "prepared", urine is generally not. Most planets hate urine... Thats why IRL they have hugh problems with this trees at big festivals, since you know how men are. If too many do this against the same tree, it might even die.

Hmm, yeah, I guess that's why farmers spread pig's urine on the fields, because, you know, plants hate it.
Logged
You are a pirate!

Quote from: Silverionmox
Quote from: bjlong
If I wanted to recreate the world of one of my favorite stories, I should be able to specify that there is a civilization called Groan, ruled by Earls from a castle called Gormanghast.
You won't have trouble supplying the Countess with cats, or producing the annual idols to be offerred to the castle. Every fortress is a pale reflection of Ghormenghast..

catpaw

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Feces and Urine
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2008, 12:02:32 pm »

Just to mention, while feces can be pretty fertilizing if "prepared", urine is generally not. Most planets hate urine... Thats why IRL they have hugh problems with this trees at big festivals, since you know how men are. If too many do this against the same tree, it might even die.

Hmm, yeah, I guess that's why farmers spread pig's urine on the fields, because, you know, plants hate it.

Smart ass comment! Well thanks but it has been explained already 2 times before your and after mine post, in a much nicer way btw.

Okay I'm not a farmer, I just knew that a lot of people pissing against a tree hurt it... I guess the farmers will dillute the pigs urine... in contrary to spraying it concentrated onto the fields. Didn't know that. ohhh.
Logged

Tormy

  • Bay Watcher
  • I shall not pass?
    • View Profile
Re: Feces and Urine
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2008, 05:30:23 pm »

Just to mention, while feces can be pretty fertilizing if "prepared", urine is generally not. Most planets hate urine... Thats why IRL they have hugh problems with this trees at big festivals, since you know how men are. If too many do this against the same tree, it might even die.

Hmm, yeah, I guess that's why farmers spread pig's urine on the fields, because, you know, plants hate it.

Smart ass comment! Well thanks but it has been explained already 2 times before your and after mine post, in a much nicer way btw.

Okay I'm not a farmer, I just knew that a lot of people pissing against a tree hurt it... I guess the farmers will dillute the pigs urine... in contrary to spraying it concentrated onto the fields. Didn't know that. ohhh.

Oh what the hell...dont tell me that you two will fall out because of feces?!  ;D ;)

We should just lead the "sewer pipes" into the river or something?

Well thats what the romans did...

Yes indeed, and *ahem* this is still common in some countries.. ;D
Logged

Soralin

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Feces and Urine
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2008, 06:35:06 pm »

Tanning and carcasshandling one can assume is because of the fact that hauling rotting bodies around and flaying them for leather in a race to beat the maggots to it, isn't very nice.

it's worse than just that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning

Quote
In ancient history, tanning was considered a noxious or "odiferous trade" and relegated to the outskirts of town, amongst the poor. Indeed, tanning by ancient methods is so foul smelling that tanneries are still isolated from those towns today where the old methods are used. The ancients used leather for waterskins, bags, harnesses, boats, armor, quivers, scabbards, boots and sandals. Tanning was being carried out by the South Asian inhabitants of Mehrgarh between 7000–3300 BC.[1] Around 2500 BC, the Sumerians began using leather, affixed by copper studs, on chariot wheels.

Skins typically arrived at the tannery dried stiff and dirty with soil and gore. First, the ancient tanners would soak the skins in water to clean and soften them. Then they would pound and scour the skin to remove any remaining flesh and fat. Next, the tanner needed to remove the hair fibers from the skin. This was done by either soaking the skin in urine, painting it with an alkaline lime mixture, or simply letting the skin putrefy for several months then dipping it in a salt solution. After the hair fibers were loosened, the tanners scraped them off with a knife.

Once the hair was removed, the tanners would bate the material by pounding dung into the skin or soaking the skin in a solution of animal brains. Among the kinds of dung commonly used were that of dogs or pigeons. Sometimes the dung was mixed with water in a large vat, and the prepared skins were kneaded in the dung water until they became supple, but not too soft. The ancient tanner might use his bare feet to knead the skins in the dung water, and the kneading could last two or three hours.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 06:37:06 pm by Soralin »
Logged

Willfor

  • Bay Watcher
  • The great magmaman adventurer. I do it for hugs.
    • View Profile
Re: Feces and Urine
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2008, 08:24:21 pm »

As has been demonstrated so well within this thread, before western society became so sterilised, the world tended to be a far more disgusting place. It still is, of course, we just don't see it as much. Mostly because we don't want to. Who can blame us? However, denying ugly realities doesn't make them go away, and DF tends to be a game that let's it's own reality take over in ways that we find disgusting or hilarious.

The copious amounts of gore honestly disgusted me, and still can if I am causing pain by not hitting a critical organ after attacking fifty times. I am sure with this implemented there will be a few more things I would rather not see presented to me, but it opens eyes to harsh truths.
Logged
In the wells of livestock vans with shells and garden sands /
Iron mixed with oxygen as per the laws of chemistry and chance /
A shape was roughly human, it was only roughly human /
Apparition eyes / Apparition eyes / Knock, apparition, knock / Eyes, apparition eyes /

Dwaref

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Feces and Urine
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2008, 11:33:09 pm »

As has been demonstrated so well within this thread, before western society became so sterilised, the world tended to be a far more disgusting place. It still is, of course, we just don't see it as much. Mostly because we don't want to. Who can blame us? However, denying ugly realities doesn't make them go away, and DF tends to be a game that let's it's own reality take over in ways that we find disgusting or hilarious.

The copious amounts of gore honestly disgusted me, and still can if I am causing pain by not hitting a critical organ after attacking fifty times. I am sure with this implemented there will be a few more things I would rather not see presented to me, but it opens eyes to harsh truths.
Yeah, I'll say.
I guess tanners in order to tan a hide will have to being 'fuel' in the form of dwarven waste like how smelters have to have access to refined fuel. No more of this 'compost' stuff, we need a stockpile for bodily waste!

Quote from: wikipedia article
Children employed as dung gatherers were a common sight in ancient cities. Also common were "piss-pots" located on street corners, where human urine could be collected for use in tanneries or by washerwomen(<as we remember washing clothes also needs urine>).
Aaand there we have another use for nobles/children as well as a mechanic on how to install johns. Just mount a bucket/other container as a room, and have dwarves empty the resulting solution with another bucket.
Then add splattering and haul water with said bucket and spread dysentery to the wounded.
One liquid unit of mixed waste per liquid unit of water per dwarf should be about right, so we would then know how many units would be needed to fill a cesspit. No need to differentiate the waste imo.

Dysentery in wartimes, I guess would come from the fact that there is a lot of improvisationally dug latrines/no latrines along with shaky access to fresh water. Dwarves should have it. Dysentery is basically caused by water that's thick with carnivorous micro-organisms that are voracious enough to eat the stomach/gut lining faster than the body can regenerate it, and causes all sorts of uncontrollable expulsion of ingested materials in a variously digested states. Drinking the murky water from pools should have a chance to cause it.
And also any ingested contact with any infected matter, be it vomit or waste should have a very high chance of causing it. Kittens could drag the stuff into the food stockpile(have you looked at your kittens paws lately?), or the dwarf in question could spread it to the water supply if(ever) he takes a bath.

Medieval Europe
Beer was one of the most common drinks during the Middle Ages. It was consumed daily by all social classes in the northern and eastern parts of Europe where grape cultivation was difficult or impossible. Though wine of varying qualities was the most common drink in the south, beer was still popular among the lower classes. Since the purity of water could seldom be guaranteed, alcoholic drinks were a popular choice, having been boiled as part of the brewing process. Beer also provided a considerable amount of the daily calories in the northern regions. In England and the Low Countries, the per capita consumption was 275-300 liters (60-66 gallons) a year by the Late Middle Ages, and beer was downed with every meal.
We all get a view of how filthy their surroundings were, since they didn't know of the existence of micro-organisms. The end result is kind of like DF. Even children drink beer, and beer is drunk to every meal. One big difference is that medieval man would get seriously ill when he drank water, and was afraid to even take a bath out of fear of water.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 12:06:11 am by Dwaref »
Logged
He is somewhat reserved. He prefers to be alone. He doesn't need thrills or risks in life. He is never optimistic or enthusiastic about anything. He has a fertile imagination. He is open-minded to new ideas. He is put off by authority and tradition. He is very straightforward with others. He is very disorganized. He thinks it is incredibly important to strive for excellence. He has very little self-discipline. He takes time when making decisions. He doesn't really care about anything anymore.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 17