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[SirPenguin]

I think (2) is best.

Some sort of "Fortify Wall", a job done by whatever worker the material of the wall is made out of. Maybe each type of stone has a different strength to it, and fortifying it doubles it. Sappers, like everyone else, have skills/levels. A novice sapper can smash through unfortified chalk (which I assume is brittle, but probably isn't) and sand, but can't break through anything else.

This would encourage building into mountains with strong stone, and going underground a lot more.

[Jude]

The idea of having the AI able to do its own digging seems impossible; not to mention scary if it actually were implemented; it could easily chew up the whole map before you knew it.

I'd prefer the idea of sappers/suicide bombers running in to smash walls, as well as siege towers, battering rams, and other such things to destroy constructed walls and doors.

Of course, this means you could still keep your fort safe by having your entrance be a single tile dug into the ground and not bother with constructions...

[Davion]

I don't see goblins as the type that would be good at mining effectively, unless maybe they had a dwarf or some humans in their ranks. In any event, I don't think mining in the sense of Dungeon Keeper (digging directly into your fortress) should be allowed, because as Jude has said that would probably be a pathfinding nightmare; I don't even know how you'd regulate that without killing frames.

I would think it'd only be practical as a somewhat last ditch effort on a fortress that had discernible walls/fortifications. They could just burrow under a section of the wall/fortification and cause a collapse. That could be another aspect of goblin snatchers, they could kidnap your dwarven children and raise them as effective sappers in case there was a siege that required them.

Fighting fire with fire I guess.

[Inindo]

Even if the AI doesn't do it, the player can still do it against the AI (assuming thy allow you to being miners).  Unless this tactic is taken into account, then assaulting enemy fortresses will become very VERY easy.

[Xether]

Goblin sapper tunnels should collapse after a season because the goblins are quickly trying to enter your fortress and not putting supports along the tunnels. That way the map won't be filled with tunnel systems that can look quite ugly and keeps the goblins coming from different directions.

There should also be goblins who are equipped with ladders which can be useful to obtain to fortresses that have walls to climb.

And finally a flying creature (wyvern) that goblins can ride which can drop troops off in the middle of dwarf courtyards and attack dwarves on the walls. 

[Tormy]

Even if the AI doesn't do it, the player can still do it against the AI (assuming thy allow you to being miners).  Unless this tactic is taken into account, then assaulting enemy fortresses will become very VERY easy.

Yep, balance is very bad even now, considering that the AI sieges are pretty much worthless. Like youve said the player will be able to get into enemy settlements with tunneling, so the balance problems will be even worse I guess.
Toady must balance these in time somehow.

The idea of having the AI able to do its own digging seems impossible; not to mention scary if it actually were implemented; it could easily chew up the whole map before you knew it.

I'd prefer the idea of sappers/suicide bombers running in to smash walls, as well as siege towers, battering rams, and other such things to destroy constructed walls and doors.

Of course, this means you could still keep your fort safe by having your entrance be a single tile dug into the ground and not bother with constructions...

Why would it be impossible? Also, whats the point in having siege towers or battering rams if the siegers wont be able to reach the gates of your fortress at all? Even if you do not build any moats or traps, fortifications + ranged units are able to beat off all invaders easily. I do not build moats or traps for example, and I never loose a single dwarf in the sieges....

[Guilliman]

|~|
|~|
|~|
|~|

 | =wall
 ~=magma
Magma walls

Try digging behind me now! whuhahahaha

[Tormy]

|~|
|~|
|~|
|~|

 | =wall
 ~=magma
Magma walls

Try digging behind me now! whuhahahaha

Well if the AI will be able to build bridges + ramps if needed, I dont see any problems with bypassing this defense even. 
..but yeah gotcha. Basically its almost impossible to code in a decent AI what would be able to ignore all defenses, and storm into your fortress...
Either way, if the AI can dig into your fortress and build bridges over moats, the sieges will be much more effective compared to what we have now.

[Weev]

|  <-g
|~|
|~|g-^kekeke
|~~~~

Ohes noes.

[LegacyCWAL]

I just thought of something that everybody seems to be forgetting: numbers.  Throughout history, attackers have generally needed a numerical advantage of 2:1 or 3:1 or so to make them the favored side in a battle.  A mature dwarven fortress has upwards of one hundred and fifty potential recruits that can be pump-trained, drafted, weapon-trained, equipped, and deployed.  Sieges of even three or four hundred goblins could be horribly insufficient to overcome a sufficiently zerg-tastic defense.

I hope to god that the army arc includes the ability for civs to not only generate decent-sized armies, but to keep doing so.  Knocking out one enemy force, only to find that doing so has depopulated half the continent would be pretty underwhelming.

Why would it be impossible? Also, whats the point in having siege towers or battering rams if the siegers wont be able to reach the gates of your fortress at all? Even if you do not build any moats or traps, fortifications + ranged units are able to beat off all invaders easily. I do not build moats or traps for example, and I never loose a single dwarf in the sieges....

If Toady goes through the trouble of coding things such as sappers, battering rams, etc., do you really honestly think that he won't put in something to nerf one of the most blatant uberdefenses?  Just like moats, walls, and traps, there's lots of stuff he can do to reduce the effectiveness of the very same "unbreachable defense" that you mention:

*If he puts in siege towers, he would probably make them actually do what real-life siege towers did and protect attacking troops.
*Battering rams with a roof on them.
*Siege engines to knock away fortifications so that attacking archers can return fire.
*The very same sappers that everybody keeps talking about to do Trolls' job and tear away fortifications so that, again, attacking archers can return fire.
*Shields that actually work.
*Hell, maybe even the Roman "tortoise" formation.

And that's all on top of the option of just plain nerfing ranged combat outright.

[Tormy]

I just thought of something that everybody seems to be forgetting: numbers.  Throughout history, attackers have generally needed a numerical advantage of 2:1 or 3:1 or so to make them the favored side in a battle.  A mature dwarven fortress has upwards of one hundred and fifty potential recruits that can be pump-trained, drafted, weapon-trained, equipped, and deployed.  Sieges of even three or four hundred goblins could be horribly insufficient to overcome a sufficiently zerg-tastic defense.

I hope to god that the army arc includes the ability for civs to not only generate decent-sized armies, but to keep doing so.  Knocking out one enemy force, only to find that doing so has depopulated half the continent would be pretty underwhelming.

Why would it be impossible? Also, whats the point in having siege towers or battering rams if the siegers wont be able to reach the gates of your fortress at all? Even if you do not build any moats or traps, fortifications + ranged units are able to beat off all invaders easily. I do not build moats or traps for example, and I never loose a single dwarf in the sieges....

If Toady goes through the trouble of coding things such as sappers, battering rams, etc., do you really honestly think that he won't put in something to nerf one of the most blatant uberdefenses?  Just like moats, walls, and traps, there's lots of stuff he can do to reduce the effectiveness of the very same "unbreachable defense" that you mention:

*If he puts in siege towers, he would probably make them actually do what real-life siege towers did and protect attacking troops.
*Battering rams with a roof on them.
*Siege engines to knock away fortifications so that attacking archers can return fire.
*The very same sappers that everybody keeps talking about to do Trolls' job and tear away fortifications so that, again, attacking archers can return fire.
*Shields that actually work.
*Hell, maybe even the Roman "tortoise" formation.

And that's all on top of the option of just plain nerfing ranged combat outright.

Yeah I hope so that the attackers will have some protection somehow, or else, the defending ranged units will always tear apart everything.
If that part is ok, we wont have too many problems, especially if the siegers can reach the fortress. Sieges will be fun and challenging after that point.

[Archaeologist]

The main issues for a Goblin Siege to counter are

-Traps
-Moats
-Choke Points.

Frankly a digging AI seems a little over the top, though It would be interesting.  For instance, at my fort, Bridgefight,  a large chunk of my walls outside the fort are sand.  The inner areas are rock.  I use the largest of these areas for farming.  feeling a little "unsafe" (Paranoid sounds so dirty), I dug out the entire wall area, and created a Block Wall that meets the rock.  Then I made sure the ceilings were safe.


The things that need to be countered are ways the player can fuck the game over.  I for instance have walled the entire map off, and dug a small moat with bridge as the only way in.  Took a few ambushes and sieges to plug things up, but it's now impervious.  My Dwarves can function as normal whenever a siege arrives.

That's a problem to a certain extent.


Counters
- Goblins making ramps to go over small tiny walls
- Goblins making large, visible, slow moving siege engines to breakdown/ go over giant walls, or perhaps break through thin fortress walls?
- Goblins construct bridges over span-able moats
- Goblins construct catapults?

[DG]

I vote against sappers, I think enemies should seige more effectively and traps should be greatly reduced in power (1 weapon each 75% chance to hit 60% chance to stick) or similar, so they act more as an enemy weakener than an enemy killer.

Okay, tell us how could they siege effectively, when they cannot even bypass a single moat right now. How could the AI get into your fortress? If the AI wont be able to get into your fortress, what siege are we talking about? Marksdwarves vs. 200 FUBAR goblins, trying to figure out what to do and where to go? Losses: AI player: 200, human player: zero as it is now.

Well, a siege is something an attacking force resorts to when they can't effectively attack a target, so goblins waiting around on the map apparently doing nothing is perfectly good tactics for a siege. Unfortunately, as the game stands currently, sieges are ineffective and it has little to do with moats, walls, drawbridges, crossbows etc. A goblin siege is doomed to failure for so long as an entire dwarven fort can be sustained indefinately on a few tiles devoted to growing plump helmets. The whole idea of a siege is to isolate your enemy and wait for them to weaken via starvation and the like so that the overwhelming advantage given them by whatever they are hiding behind becomes less of an issue for your attacking force. It doesn't matter how deep your moat, how thick your walls, or how numerous your bolts are when your force is starving and there's an army camped outside of range blocking you from being supplied. So to allow effective sieges you'd need to make it much more difficult for a fort that completely shuts up shop to sustain its population.

Any way, more on topic, I don't think attacking forces should be able to dig as it'd ruin more things (in a bad way) than it'd  help. Once Toady implements things like portable bridges to quickly and easily pass moats, siege towers to overrun walls and battering rams to knock down gates then everything will sort itself out without needing to give the AI the ability to dig. I believe all natural stone terrain should remain invulnerable but all constructed structures should be fair game, with material used and the skill of the builder determining how much punishment it can take.

The vile force of darkness arrives and your dwarves retreat back over their moat, behind their walls, and passed the drawbridge to check on the plump helmets. The goblins mass at the moat like so many times before but something is different this time. Dust rises in in the distance and soon a large contingent of trolls can be seen laboriously dragging massive tree trunks. The tree trunks are thrown across your moats and the goblins saunter across. The tree trunks are then propped up against your walls and the goblins skip over them. The drawbridge is eventually smashed by the same multi-purpose bridge-ladder-battering ram and suddenly your dwarves have more to worry about than making sure they don't inadvertently cook all the plump helmet spawn. That sort of scenario would be better than giving the goblins picks, I think.

[Tormy]

I vote against sappers, I think enemies should seige more effectively and traps should be greatly reduced in power (1 weapon each 75% chance to hit 60% chance to stick) or similar, so they act more as an enemy weakener than an enemy killer.

Okay, tell us how could they siege effectively, when they cannot even bypass a single moat right now. How could the AI get into your fortress? If the AI wont be able to get into your fortress, what siege are we talking about? Marksdwarves vs. 200 FUBAR goblins, trying to figure out what to do and where to go? Losses: AI player: 200, human player: zero as it is now.

Any way, more on topic, I don't think attacking forces should be able to dig as it'd ruin more things (in a bad way) than it'd  help. Once Toady implements things like portable bridges to quickly and easily pass moats, siege towers to overrun walls and battering rams to knock down gates then everything will sort itself out without needing to give the AI the ability to dig. I believe all natural stone terrain should remain invulnerable but all constructed structures should be fair game, with material used and the skill of the builder determining how much punishment it can take.

Well lets hope so that it will work as you've posted about it.
..as a side note: You must admit that if enemies would be able to dig into your fortress, that would be fun. Personally I think that it would be good gameplay wise. If you manage to kill the attackers, you can fix your fortress easily [Replace the damaged walls etc...].
I can also understand that some players wouldnt like it, the "difficulty level" of DF would be harder if something like this would've been added...so perhaps an option in the .ini to turn this feature on/off could work like a charm.

[Decimator]

I say make sappers not able to dig through metal walls without a better pick.  A copper wall would require a bronze pick, a bronze wall would require a steel pick, a steel wall would require an adamantine pick and an adamantine wall would just make them SOL.