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[Inindo]

In Real Life, digging large is both dangerous and slow, and so while people will attempt to dig under the walls, massive overland assaults are generally the norm in warfare.  In Dwarf Fortress, digging is much easier, and so sappers can change the way warfare works.

In every single goblin Siege that I've player, is the goblins had brought just ONE miner and had him tunnel underneath my defenses and come up in the civilian section, then I would have taken extremely heavy damage ad would have had to seriously re-design my fortress in order to counter this tactic.  Even if we prevent the AI from doing it to you, when you're able to invade other countries, there's little to prevent you from doing to other players.

So, how should we address this new advance in three-dimensional warfare?

1) Forbid it.  Invaders never bring miners, and you can't bring them either when invading somewhere else.

2) Allow it, but add in various features which can be used to block the tactic.

3) Allow it, but don't add in any extra defenses.  People will now have to design their fortresses with lots of constructed walls and internal traps to keep out sappers.

[Weev]

To be fair, the gobbo's, although they have a unquie dwarf senseing ability to find your fortress ANYWHERE in the world, do not know where to dig, and how to get there.

Siege mechanics back in the midevil times where a sapper was called for, was in many accounts, there to collapse a wall.  Opening a hole into an enemy fortress would be almost suicidal.  A tiny space negated your numbers, and the defenders simply could push the invaders back. 
Unlike in fantasy world, where a spell or giant monster could simply batter down a door, or clear a hallway, attackers most always had to rely on a good "3 to 1" rule for attacking a barricaded area.  A single man could hold a doorway, since all he had to do was fight one or two enemies at a time.
If sappers were employed in dwarf fortress, I think they would be more inclined to try and simply destroy walls.  A ton of forts that I have seen use walls as a "funnel" into a much safer area to deal with gobs.  A sapper could also construct ramps if needed, or in extreme cases, use himself as a battering ram. (ALA Warcraft syle.)
In all these cases, a sapper would most likely cause a player to sally forth and try to drive back invaders, instead of simply "Lock the door, and wait 'em out"

Sieges are fine how they are.  The AI could be worked upon, but what they would actually do is up to Toady. <3

[LegacyCWAL]

Yeah, Horatius at the Bridge comes to mind.

I don't think that digging tunnels into the fortress would necessarily be needed, even if it did work.  The vast majority of defense "strategies" I've seen mentioned would be completely fucked if even one goblin could build a bridge and they actually brought trolls along.

[Maggarg - Eater of chicke]

That, and random digging by gobbo sappers would wreck an awful lot of stuff.
spy sappin' mah defenses

[Vugor]

it be very interesting to have sappers, i agree

but it if it ever is in the game i think i could/should be optional

[Neonivek]

I am Personally surprised that Trolls, or some improved Seige version of a Troll, can't push down a wall.

Goblins shouldn't NEED Sappers especially since "Goblin Sappers" just sounds overwhelming like an allusion to Warcraft (specifically Warcraft 2)

[Tormy]

In Real Life, digging large is both dangerous and slow, and so while people will attempt to dig under the walls, massive overland assaults are generally the norm in warfare.  In Dwarf Fortress, digging is much easier, and so sappers can change the way warfare works.

In every single goblin Siege that I've player, is the goblins had brought just ONE miner and had him tunnel underneath my defenses and come up in the civilian section, then I would have taken extremely heavy damage ad would have had to seriously re-design my fortress in order to counter this tactic.  Even if we prevent the AI from doing it to you, when you're able to invade other countries, there's little to prevent you from doing to other players.

So, how should we address this new advance in three-dimensional warfare?

1) Forbid it.  Invaders never bring miners, and you can't bring them either when invading somewhere else.

2) Allow it, but add in various features which can be used to block the tactic.

3) Allow it, but don't add in any extra defenses.  People will now have to design their fortresses with lots of constructed walls and internal traps to keep out sappers.

Heh...this has been brought up countless times already. [How to enchance the sieges?]
I would definitely "vote" for 3.
Siegers need to have special units capable of digging tunnels, spot/disable traps, construct bridges over moats. Right now if the player constructed a moat, the enemy cannot bypass it. So if you want a bit more challenging game, you do not constuct moats and do not build overpowered traps at all, thus you must handicap yourself a lot. [This feels bad, since we wont use certain gameplay features but theres no other way if you want to see bit more challenging sieges] Also the vanilla game is even more easier than it was. I rarely see trolls for example...so if the goblins will invade they cannot even get into the fortress if you have doors...humans and elves are also a joke.
So either way, now that Toady is working on the Army Arc, he should update the siege AI / enchance the siege mechanics.

[Jreengus]

I vote against sappers, I think enemies should seige more effectively and traps should be greatly reduced in power (1 weapon each 75% chance to hit 60% chance to stick) or similar, so they act more as an enemy weakener than an enemy killer.

[Tormy]

I vote against sappers, I think enemies should seige more effectively and traps should be greatly reduced in power (1 weapon each 75% chance to hit 60% chance to stick) or similar, so they act more as an enemy weakener than an enemy killer.

Okay, tell us how could they siege effectively, when they cannot even bypass a single moat right now. How could the AI get into your fortress? If the AI wont be able to get into your fortress, what siege are we talking about? Marksdwarves vs. 200 FUBAR goblins, trying to figure out what to do and where to go? Losses: AI player: 200, human player: zero as it is now.

[Proteus]

Why not?
After all it wasnīt uncommon to use sappers in medieval warfare.
Maybe the goblins should also be able to destroy walls with it (by collapsing the tunnel undernath a wall)

Of course the dwarves should be able to see the goblins tunnels as soon as they make them, after all they are expert miners (and even in medieval times the garrison of the castle had tricks to detect tunnels by siegers [like plates filled with water where ripples on the water surface would detect the presence of sappers digging a tunnel])

[Erom]

Sappers should def. be in eventually, especially with the importance of the underground in this game. Personally, I give all intelligent races lockpick and trapavoid, so traps are only useful to keep wild animals out, but even then I have to deliberately not use moats. There is no way a little ditch should completely stop a seige. We also need seige engineers and enemy catapults + ballistas

On traps, also - I don't traps should be nerfed in effectiveness - a spear through the gut is a spear through the gut- but enemies should treat a square where they saw an ally get sliced up as forbidden, and have some chance to notice the trap even before it goes off and avoid it. Also, right now they are too easy to construct - a weapon trap should take two mechanisms for every weapon you put into it, and maybe a couple of stone blocks or logs.

[LegacyCWAL]

One idea I had for a trap nerf was to make them 2x2.  While it wouldn't stop a determined player from simply cramming the same number of traps into four times the surface area, it would make it that much harder for the defender and that much easier for the attacker.  I seriously doubt it would be anywhere near enough of a nerf, but combining it with other nerfs (zillions of suggestions for which are all over the place) could help.

Why not?
After all it wasnīt uncommon to use sappers in medieval warfare.
Maybe the goblins should also be able to destroy walls with it (by collapsing the tunnel undernath a wall)

The problem with putting in sappers for the sole purpose of knocking down walls is that there already IS a way for them to knock down walls: Trolls.  So if sappers go in, they would have to be able to other things as well to make it worth the hassle of coding such a thing.

[Proteus]

O.K., maybe the trolls should be more often and more agressively employed, though.
If I remember correctly at the moment they wonīt knock down walls if they have no path into the fortress. And they will onbly be very scarcely employed (in the whole year I am playing DF now I can only remember one siege where the goblins had trolls among their forces [despite the fact that I usually play DF anew every version up to the point where my fortress is already a mighty duchy and the goblins siege me with 4 squads (a 15 goblins) and more, led by the best leaders they have]).

If we assume that sappers wonīt be used for breaching walls (but this would be the job of trolls instead), they still could have uses. 
Often I have the entrance to my castle 1 or more levels above the ground, reachable only by a retractable bridge. If this bridge is retracted not even the best wall brraching capability of trolls would enable the goblins to break into my fortress.

Even a sapper that is only capable to dig into earth might be a good help for goblins in this situation, as I (as well as other players) prefer to have my underground farms at the first subterranean level, directly beneath soil tiles (so that I donīt have to flood the field regularly).
Sappers that might dig into these underground farms would give deeper underground farms on rocky tiles (that have to be flooded regularly) a new purpose, as they would be much less vulnerable to goblin sieges than underground farms in soil tiles. 

[Inindo]

I think the issues with easy digging in warfare isn't just bypassing walls and moats.  Currently in Dwarf Fortress (and in real life medieval times) attacks are launched from just one Z-level, leading people to defend that Z-level with walls, archers, and moats.  However, with easy mining, now ANY Z-level can be attacked.  You'll not only have to fortify the surface with walls and defenses, but every single Z-level, plus the floor, since now everything is reachable via miners.  You'll also need additional contingency plans in case of a breach and how to quickly seal off sections of the fort long enough for your military to arrive.  It really forces a lot of change in gameplay, and so should be carefully considered.

[Tormy]

One idea I had for a trap nerf was to make them 2x2.  While it wouldn't stop a determined player from simply cramming the same number of traps into four times the surface area, it would make it that much harder for the defender and that much easier for the attacker.  I seriously doubt it would be anywhere near enough of a nerf, but combining it with other nerfs (zillions of suggestions for which are all over the place) could help.

Why not?
After all it wasnīt uncommon to use sappers in medieval warfare.
Maybe the goblins should also be able to destroy walls with it (by collapsing the tunnel undernath a wall)

The problem with putting in sappers for the sole purpose of knocking down walls is that there already IS a way for them to knock down walls: Trolls.  So if sappers go in, they would have to be able to other things as well to make it worth the hassle of coding such a thing.

Well I think its clear that traps are overpowered, but Im pretty sure that there will be some trap related changes while Toady is working on the Army Arc.

I think the issues with easy digging in warfare isn't just bypassing walls and moats.  Currently in Dwarf Fortress (and in real life medieval times) attacks are launched from just one Z-level, leading people to defend that Z-level with walls, archers, and moats.  However, with easy mining, now ANY Z-level can be attacked.  You'll not only have to fortify the surface with walls and defenses, but every single Z-level, plus the floor, since now everything is reachable via miners.  You'll also need additional contingency plans in case of a breach and how to quickly seal off sections of the fort long enough for your military to arrive.  It really forces a lot of change in gameplay, and so should be carefully considered.

Well the current problems are [vanilla game]:

1. Siegers cannot bypass moats.
2. Siegers often cannot break down doors/gates/walls.
2. Traps are overpowered.
3. Ranged weapons are overpowered.

..but back to the topic: I like the idea of sappers, it would be interesting if siegers could get into your fortress like that. That is what I call a challenge!