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[Servant Corps]

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=24069.45

The use of "science" as a stand-in for an atheist religion should be avoided. I know plenty of atheists that don't have a clue about even elementary physics, and I know of brilliant scientists that are convinced in the depths of the most arcane studies, they glimpse the mind of their god.

In case Toady One wants to implement Atheism, here is how one may do it:

New guild: Enlightenment Movement
The Enlightenment Movement view itself as a vanguard of Reason and Logic. Of course, they don't view themselves as religious, but rather that they desire that people should not accept traditions on face value and instead do research and studies to learn the 'truth' for themselves. People in the "Enlightenment Movement" can create new books and ideas that will help generate a Positive Mood to most people, or at a very least, to themselves, which is always nice. However, to the very religious, the Enlightenment Movement can create a Negative Mood, due to their rejection of Faith. At the same time, members of the Enlightenment Movement gets a negative Mood whenever exposed to religious properganda, because the properganda does not use the logic that the Movement prefers.

Being a member of the Enlightenment Movement does not mean that you are automatically atheist/deitistc/etc.  Rather, those with no faith in any God are more likely to enter into the Enlightenment Movement, assuming they don't belong to other guilds. People who do believe in Gods or in other Powers are less likely to enter into the Guild, but they can still enter into it.

A drawf who does not believe in any God but does not join the Enlightenment Movement is just a common person who doesn't worry about the faith/logic arguments, and cares instead of the more important things in life, like getting drunk. A drawf who believes in Gods but join the Enlightenment Movement believes that the Gods want people to use the gifts of Logic in order to determine how best to organize their society, and that using reason is the best way of worshipping God.

[Draco18s]

Wouldn't it be Enlightenment?

[Duke 2.0]

 So, it's effects are just like a normal religion when that stuff gets in?

[Neonivek]

I think whoever wrote it seems to have this idea that Religion and Logic are an Oxymoron for some reason or the idea that most atheisms seem to believe that religion is such a farce that those who believe in it are simply illogical...

The writer also seems to believe that people who have no affiliations with a religion seem to naturally flock to anti-religion...

The Enlightenment in real life wasn't the opex of atheism...

So here are my fixes
1) Atheists believe that the gods are not worthy of worship for some reason... rather then downright disbelief. (or maybe both)
-If only because gods will be real eventually and it kinda makes Atheists kinda stupid.
2) Atheists are not the savants of logic and science, afterall religion was a driving force of science for thousands of years. They can believe themselves more logical, but so could other religions

--------------------------------------------------------

Uhhh I am not sure I agree with what I just wrote... however I don't wish to do a lot of editing work... so take what I wrote as you will.

[Servant Corps]

I think whoever wrote it seems to have this idea that Religion and Logic are an Oxymoron for some reason or the idea that most atheisms seem to believe that religion is such a farce that those who believe in it are simply illogical...

Actually, I do not have that sort of idea at all, in real life. I do however make that sort of assumption so as to make it easy to implement Atheism inside DF (remember, this is a game, not a political simulator). Having Religion and Logic as dualistic forces hating each other works fine for a game, even though it's more complex than in real life. Since this is a game of massive carp attacks or elephant invasions, I'm sure assumptions like this might be alright, if only for comedy.

Your fixes however works fine, but I would prefer having religious people also enter into the Enlightenment Movement, rather than having only those who believe the Gods are not worthy of worship. I don't know why though, meh.

So, it's effects are just like a normal religion when that stuff gets in?

Somewhat. The difference is that a person may be a member of a normal religion and the Enlightenment Movement, so he should be able to receive postive Moods from both the Movement and from his religion, as well as negative Moods whenever his Movement or his religion gets attacked.

So think of it as a "dual-religion"?

[Duke 2.0]

 So, it's no longer Atheism and is now science?

 Sorry for the short posts, but that's the gist of my questions.

[Neonivek]

remember, this is a game, not a political simulator

It is a game... but your running it under assumptions of the "Natural order of things"

Yeah this doesn't really sound like Atheism at all and in fact makes little sense compared that Monsters Exist.

This kinda reminds me how a lot of modern movies sometimes have Mini-revolutions during times where it made little sense for it to happen... Like Julius Caesar fighting for Women's right to vote or something like that.

Dwarf Fortress world isn't really something I can picture an Enlightenment in... it isn't a world of Paranoid mythology where the average person believes that there are Goblins hiding in the hills... because there are.

I am trying to understand where the angle of the Enlightenment is...

[Servant Corps]

So, it's no longer Atheism and is now science?

Well, it is still Atheism. Somewhat.

Some time ago, a Pew Survey on religion revealed that 21% of Atheists believe in either a Universal Spirit or in a God. This obivously caused many people to strongly question the intelligence of those 21% of Atheists, but it got me thinking on why they would call themselves Atheists.

The Pew Survey itself made the hypothesis that many of the people who call themselves Atheist, but believe in God do so because they view themselves as "culturally" Atheistic and accept most of the Atheist's worldview, feeling a sense of belonging. So that is what I tried to reflect, allowing for the 'god-fearing atheist' to in fact exist.

The reason I didn't said that in the begining of the post was because I...er...thought it was a bit silly to use that as an argument for what I was doing. Meh.

I am trying to understand where the angle of the Enlightenment is...

Er...well, it all started with the idea of integrating religion into DF, so people wonder on how to integrate Atheism into DF too.

[penguinofhonor]

Hey there's a really fun topic about this

[Neonivek]

"Some time ago, a Pew Survey on religion revealed that 21% of Atheists believe in either a Universal Spirit or in a God. This obivously caused many people to strongly question the intelligence of those 21% of Atheists, but it got me thinking on why they would call themselves Atheists"

Simple... because if your not a member of any religion then your labled an Atheist... They don't split you up into Spiritualist, Theist, though sometimes they do seperate you from Agnostic

Someone who believes in a god or gods but who isn't part of a religion is a theist

I THINK!!!

[penguinofhonor]

Someone who believes in a god or gods but who isn't part of a religion is a theist

Theist is just a general term for people who believe in gods. Christians are Theists. Ancient Greeks were Theists. Wiccans are Theists.

[Servant Corps]

But the Pew Survey had groups. They had atheist, agnostic, secular unaffilated, and religious unaffilated. The deists/spirutalists should have said they were religious unaffilated, rather than call themselves Atheists then.

But, er, penguinofhonor is right. There was a seperate topic, but I thought it was dead, and I wanted commentary on this whole idea.

Theist is just a general term for people who believe in gods. Christians are Theists. Ancient Greeks were Theists. Wiccans are Theists.

penguinofhonor is right. The correct term for a person who believe in God but not part of religion is a 'deist'.

[penguinofhonor]

penguinofhonor is right. The correct term for a person who believe in God but not part of religion is a 'deist'.

More wrong. Deists are their own section of religion. They believe that a god created the world but doesn't do anything with it besides watch history play out and see who's going to hell or not. That's a bit too specific to just mean that they aren't part of an organized religion.

Is there even a word for that?

[Hyndis]

Is this even really needed at all?

Particularly considering that in the DF world, magic actually exists. Dragons, giant living statues, walking skeletons, zombies, imps, elementals, unicorns, fairies, demons, and being able to magically brew booze without the need for water.

I'm an atheist myself, and the real world is very much different from the DF world. In the real world, we don't have magic. In the DF world, magic exists and is a very real, common part of everyday living.

Just seems like a lot of fuss and a waste of time over something that won't have much impact in gameplay.

[Hyndis]

penguinofhonor is right. The correct term for a person who believe in God but not part of religion is a 'deist'.

More wrong. Deists are their own section of religion. They believe that a god created the world but doesn't do anything with it besides watch history play out and see who's going to hell or not. That's a bit too specific to just mean that they aren't part of an organized religion.

Is there even a word for that?

Deists (such as most of the Founding Fathers of the US, most famously) basically believe that god created the universe then went AFK. Most definitely not a personal god, as is the defining characteristic of Christianity.

As for people who believe in god but don't follow any particular religion, they're not atheists. An atheist is a non-theist. As in, does not believe in god(s). Incidentally, its quite possible to be both an atheist and religious, as not all religions involve gods.

Usually people would fill out the "other" catagory if they believe in god(s) but don't follow any particular religion. Or if they don't believe in god(s) but do follow a religion, they'd select that religion.

As for people believing in god(s) but picking the atheist catagory anyways, well...I wouldn't be surprised if a good chunk of those people don't even know what the word atheist means. In polls you'll invariably have the stupid group, people who pick nonsensical or random answers just because they can, or because they don't know any better.


Still, while an interesting discussion, one you might consider continuing on IIDB.org, I don't think it has much place in DF nor in other D&D-type settings, where gods and demons actually do exist and do things on a daily basis.