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[Andeerz]

Well in a larger fortress, this would get old pretty quick. I think that kind of stuff makes more sense in Adventure Mode rather than Fortress Mode. Economies of scale and all that. Refer here

You raise an excellent point with that link.  However, I believe tools are an important detail that is indispensable even at the scale of fortress mode.  A loose argument I posted for it is in the thread Jake linked to.  And that example I give is not a "red herring" sort of example.  I could list a good deal of other equally valid examples of the importance of a population's capacity for tool maintenance and their economic prosperity. 

[thijser]

If tools are added I think it should definitly be an option to make them get replaced automatically. So that players don't have to take care for all those tools maybe make it a manager job (has already been sugested).

[Draco18s]

Or have them material-less and quality-less so as to not require that the player churn out new knives.  Make them *iron daggers* or something middle of the road (e.g. almost any real weapon will be better due to size, material, quality, and/or other properties).

Or hell, we could say that all dwarves already carry this knife and that's why they can punch as well as they do, its just not listed (because if every dwarf carries a knife you don't need to supply there's no reason to even mention it).

[truckman1]

No dwarf leaves home without a camping knife tucked in his beard!

[Sfon]

It would also make the blacksmith MUCH more important for the fortress, since you'd probably end up making the tools necessary for most professions on-site. Which, of course, is fairly accurate for how pre-industrial societies worked.

You'd probably have to abstract a lot of it out into general clustered items. So instead of making a hammer, and saw, and chisel, and plane, etc for the carpenter's shop, you'd just make -carpenter's tools- which would be required to build a carpenter's workshop.

To some extent it is implemented in some things like buckets for wells and some workshops. If something is going to be part of the workshop and already implemented for other reasons, like buckets, I am not against it. But making tools part of the workshop adds hassle for what? It makes no sense, adding UNrealism.

What I like about your idea is the abstraction, but in many cases there is no need to make them simply as some building material. "Carpenter's Tools" can exist, but as a separate item. So the carpenter grabs the tools and goes to the workshop to work. Only tools that are realistically physically part of the workshop should be treated as such, like how a well needs a bucket as physically part of it but the buckets used for carrying water away from it are separate instead of needing to be built into it. This solves the problem of taking apart the workshop just so your carpenter can use a a better saw and hammer with it, which would be silly. It would also allow them to use the best tools regardless of which workshop they used, so long as no-one else was using them at the moment.

As for details made on-site in general, soap is pushing it for me. Bleeping soap, I'd hate to see more hassles like that . Though I would not mind so much if I could trade for the stuff.

[Draco18s]

Only tools that are realistically physically part of the workshop should be treated as such, like how a well needs a bucket as physically part of it but the buckets used for carrying water away from it are separate instead of needing to be built into it. This solves the problem of taking apart the workshop just so your carpenter can use a a better saw and hammer with it, which would be silly. It would also allow them to use the best tools regardless of which workshop they used, so long as no-one else was using them at the moment.

Urist McCarpenter cancels Make Bed: No tools available.

Just what we need: the ability to build workshops that cannot be used without first also designating that tools be made.

[thijser]

Only tools that are realistically physically part of the workshop should be treated as such, like how a well needs a bucket as physically part of it but the buckets used for carrying water away from it are separate instead of needing to be built into it. This solves the problem of taking apart the workshop just so your carpenter can use a a better saw and hammer with it, which would be silly. It would also allow them to use the best tools regardless of which workshop they used, so long as no-one else was using them at the moment.

Urist McCarpenter cancels Make Bed: No tools available.

Just what we need: the ability to build workshops that cannot be used without first also designating that tools be made.

Well if it gets added in the way this tread seems to be going it wouldn't get cancled it would however go much slower and/or towards a lower quality.

However if this is the end result we should be able to know somehow that we do not have enough tools.

In order to prevent a lot of clutter it might work to make general tools which would be used in most workshops. Think about a hammer for example which gets used in the forge. mason, carpenter and craft dwarf. This could therefore be simplefied into a single item. This would however remove a lot of "depth" but this is one of those cases where we can pit "depth" vs "ease of use" which happens a lot by the way.

[ZebioLizard2]

I don't mind this, but what I would prefer is that there be tools that Improve current workshops.

Like Since dwarves can only fish -next- to the bloody fish that still seem to kill them, I would love to build nets to drag across the ocean and mass farm them, or fishing poles just to improve their range. It'd be nice if my floating kingdom could fish from the ocean as well.

[konzill]

I don't mind this, but what I would prefer is that there be tools that Improve current workshops.

Like Since dwarves can only fish -next- to the bloody fish that still seem to kill them, I would love to build nets to drag across the ocean and mass farm them, or fishing poles just to improve their range. It'd be nice if my floating kingdom could fish from the ocean as well.

I think that some level of tools would add a good dwarfish flavour to the game. The other rule that would make sense would be to say that for any job you always need a tool or workshop, but not both.  Unless it is reasonable to do the job by hand.

However this can largely be done without actually having to add too many new items. The folloing resticts to suggesting containers and potential weapons only:

Plant Gathering: an empty sack (maybe it would allow you to gather more then one plant before having to rush back to the storeroom.

Fishing: A spear makes sense, and a training spear should do the trick.

Building Construction, smothing and engraving: A Hammer (Real dwarves make a building by hammering at the raw materials until they get up and assemble themselves to make the pain stop). Yes in engraving you would probably use a hammer and chisel, but in my opinion the chisel would be overkill. Could add a wooden mallet as a training weapon which is sufficent to do this with.

Farming (yes a pitch fork would be a nice addition here) (Its just a slightly bent trident).
Harvesting: This is just plant gather really so why not require a sack as well.

[Knigel]

Something that hasn't been mentioned for a while: will using the tools for these skills increase skill for use of those tools, like it does with miners?

[ZebioLizard2]

Hm..Watching a dwarf beating goblins down with a simple hammer and chisel would be incredibly funny to watch... I approve!

[Jake]

Well if it gets added in the way this tread seems to be going it wouldn't get cancled it would however go much slower and/or towards a lower quality.

However if this is the end result we should be able to know somehow that we do not have enough tools.

In order to prevent a lot of clutter it might work to make general tools which would be used in most workshops. Think about a hammer for example which gets used in the forge. mason, carpenter and craft dwarf. This could therefore be simplefied into a single item. This would however remove a lot of "depth" but this is one of those cases where we can pit "depth" vs "ease of use" which happens a lot by the way.

That's one reason I'd like to see an item_tools raw so we could customise it to suit ourselves. Someone out there might actually be obsessive enough to want the dozen different sizes of hammer alone that a typical smithy would have lying around, whilst others would prefer a single 'blacksmith's toolkit' item for simplicity's sake.

[Dbdragonwe]

I know this thread is two years old, but I wanted to post my thoughts anyways.

I love the idea of tools. DF is a very complex game. The reason I have recently fell in love with it. I agree that making tools at the beginning would be hard to do and add just another task to do per workshop. At a large fortress it could completely halt production if not kept up with. However what if the first automatic task of that workshop is to make a basic tool set out of whatever is available, rock or wood? Later at that workshop or some other one they could make advance tools out of better tools or expand the tool kit they have. This would improve the work and improve the speed its constructed.
      Farmers and Fishermen would work without tools but work faster with them. As for people harvesting. How hard is it to pick a veggie or mushroom? You don't need tools. This would still allow all dwarfs to harvest.

As for the idea of sets of tools versus individual tools, I think both should be available. You could make a kit of various needles for your cloth workshop or you can make them one by one. This way could produce a stack of that one needle with a higher value then it would be if it was made as part of a kit. Imagine an artifact hammer that when used no matter if its a novice or master could produce a masterpiece every time? I also love the idea of a farmer beheading a goblin with a hoe than calming going back to work while another dwarf carries away its lifeless body.
Wouldn't it also make dwarfs happier to have tools that makes work easier? Having good tools could produce happy work related thoughts.

As for the tools being replace. If the advance tool sets run out the dwarf grabs a new one if there is one, but if not oh well. If a basic needed tool goes bad they autonomic replace it. That way if you didn't want to you didn't ever have to mess with tools, but reap the rewards if you did. A win win of sorts.