Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Foa]

It's not that a easy workaround exists, it's just that small fish do not realistically drag things into the water when fighting them- the dwarven combat AI has no intelligence about dangerous terrain when I choses where to dodge/charge too. Although the carp are the most common form of this problem, dodging off of cliffs occurs for the same reason.

Carp is not a small fish.
Now small varieties do exist - the ones in your gardens pond, but not all carp are like that.

[IMG]

But what about the Goliath elders?

Abnormally large, real strong, and real aged.

[malvado]

Well, to point out how crazy the carp situation , let me illustrate one of my fights with this legendary fight :

At first when I came to the region my fishermen had no problem staying clear of the carp fish, the fortress grow to a population of 42 people and no dwarves had died to the carp untill the fatefull day of winter came. One of the smart Dwarves decided he was going to take a shortcut over a frozen river and was unlucky enough to be caught in the middle when the river unfroozen leaving him in the middle of several hungry carps. He was the first of several to come dwarves.

Soon afterwards the Carp was targeting the fisherdwarves one by one and also taking good care of anyone that needed a drink (I haven't gotten as far as to put up a well or an internal source of water, without deadly fish) of the initial population of 42 only 22 survived but having lost the dwarves I had put so much hope in I decided to abandon the fortress and reclaim it later...

Well , Reclaiming the fortress was a very bad idea. As allways some thirsty dwarf had to go near the river and SNAP, the carp had another victim under water. The following reaction of the 62 or so soldiers was to believe they was under an ambush and subsecuently they all went apeshit running towards the Carp (and certain doom lol). The River Ran Red in cuestion of minuttes and the population started to drop increasingly fast, after the initial catastrophe the rest of the dwarves decided to go apeshit and slaughtered either their friends, themselves by jumping into the now red river or running and jumping into the nearby volcano.

4 Dwarves survived, but mostly due to them going insane.

I don't think this fortress can be reclaimed.

[Neoskel]

It's not that a easy workaround exists, it's just that small fish do not realistically drag things into the water when fighting them- the dwarven combat AI has no intelligence about dangerous terrain when I choses where to dodge/charge too. Although the carp are the most common form of this problem, dodging off of cliffs occurs for the same reason.

Carp is not a small fish.
Now small varieties do exist - the ones in your gardens pond, but not all carp are like that.

- Big Carp -

Yeah, but they still don't have teeth.

[Charmless]

While there are carp in real life that grow to extra-large sizes, the ones in DF are only size 3 - the same as a typical housecat. These aren't giant baby-swallowing beasts here.

[malvado]

Would a simple removal of the attack values of the carp fix the issue?
Ie, removing the attack tokens and generating a new world?

[Erom]

No, because as stated, the problem is that the combat AI has melee dwarves throwing themselves into the river and then drowning, no matter how strong or weak the fish are.

[Noble Digger]

Building a RAMP out of the river also works great. Think of it as a riverbank, but friendlier. Only adventurers can climb out of rivers without ramps at their banks. Dwarves, even ones that have zero swimming skill, will seek out a nearby ramp if they fall in water.

To dig a ramp down into the water, you designate it one z-level below the surface\riverbank, on the tile directly adjecent to the water. A dwarf will walk over and dig it (from above) without danger of falling in.

[EvilCheerio]

Unless the later has been fixed it actually comes down to two problems.
   1. the drowning thing mention earlier. (fixed easily if you build a wade pool for your melee military members to train swimming in.

   2. unless it was fixed, i read this somewhere, carp gain perfect stats through training their swim stat, which is easy sense they can't drown and can swim naturally. ( good armor can fix this as long as you don't drown

[Morlark]

2 was fixed a long long long time ago.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I've tried modding Carp extensively to remove their killing abilities, I've found that COMPLETELY removing their attack ability has no effect, I believe their ability to frighten dwarfs is not related to attack power in any way, Instead it may come from their [LARGE_ROAMING] flag or some other seemingly harmless part of their definitions.  I've had to simply delete them entirely in order to not have horrible carp-death (fortunately their are mods which add a variety of harmless fish and I use these to fill the gap).

Their are three problems as I see it

1: Water features have cliff edges so anyone who falls in drowns, this is a map generation issue and needs to be addressed their (not by digging out your own slopes which is insane), all natural water features should have ramps/sloped banks at their edges unless its a particularly fast moving set of rapids (and I mean white water rafting fast).

2: Dwarfs will startle/ be frightened by the Carp  Fish of this size can not possibly be that frightening (carp are actually very cute and attractive) but hypothetically a large dangerous creature in the water like a shark still should not frighten someone outside the water, only an amphibious creature should frighten someone in this situation (like an Alligator or Hippo).  Likewise too many other benign animals trigger fright such a goats and even harry marmots.  Some simple size checks should exclude these small animals from inducing fright.

3: Startled / Frightened Dwarfs will dodge randomly.  I'm in favor of dodging when a creature is acutely IN combat but not as a reaction to fright.  All creatures reflexively freeze in response to fear and only if the danger comes towards them do they run, and even then their awareness of their surroundings should still be better then when in combat as they will be focused on running and avoiding obstacles rather then avoiding blows from their attacker.

[Zwergner]

I think there's also the inherent problem that carp are bloodthirsty.  Unless it's a hungry shark, a fish should run from a shadowy figure standing over the water's edge.  I don't think they're territorial.

[Noble Digger]

Unless the later has been fixed it actually comes down to two problems.
   1. the drowning thing mention earlier. (fixed easily if you build a wade pool for your melee military members to train swimming in.

   2. unless it was fixed, i read this somewhere, carp gain perfect stats through training their swim stat, which is easy sense they can't drown and can swim naturally. ( good armor can fix this as long as you don't drown

Creatures with the [SWIMS_INNATE] tag cannot gain skill in swimming, and naturally swim as if they had the full benefits of the skill. You can confirm this in adventurer mode after changing dwarves to [SWIMS_INNATE]

[Neoskel]

The reason fish aggro when someone moves next to the water where they're at is because of the way line of sight works.

The fish can't see any of the tiles on the level above except for the ones directly adjacent when they're right at the base of a cliff (the river bank).

Any time a dwarf/non-animal (chasm, magma) creature gets next to a benign animal, the animal lashes out defensively. Since the fish can't see the dwarves coming, they don't run away before they get too close and then lash out when the dwarves get right next to them.

[Noble Digger]

If your dwarves fish on a ramp tile, the carp will stay away from that tile. it's also easy to dig a dry channel next to the river, place vertical bars (or a grate--unsure if fish can pass through bars) in the channel, then allow the water into it by digging out the tile separating the water from the bars\dry channel. Carp can't get through and you can still catch critter fish easily in the segregated section of river.

[Hyndis]

Fisherman cancels drink: interrupted by carp.

Silver carp in the United States cause substantial impacts to the
health and welfare of human beings who use waterways infested with
silver carp. There are numerous reports of injuries to humans and
damage to boats and boating equipment because of the jumping habits of
silver carp in the vicinity of moving motorized watercraft. Some
reported injuries include cuts from fins, black eyes, broken bones,
back injuries, and concussions. Silver carp also cause property damage
including broken radios, depth finders, fishing equipment, and
antennae. Some vessels have been retrofitted with a Plexiglas pilot's
cab as protection against jumping silver carp.


http://www.epa.gov/EPA-IMPACT/2007/July/Day-10/i13371.htm