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[BatCountry]

Somebody who did not knew where to put his third vote ?

It has 0 votes.

Democracy works?

[IndonesiaWarMinister]

TROLL! EQUIP YOUR FLAMETHROWER! HUNT HI-

[IWM has been struck down]

Ok then, can someone delete that? We need more time before the 'apocalypse'

[Erom]

Huh? He was saying stupid suggestions don't get votes as a GOOD thing about democratic processes.

[MiamiBryce]

I'm wondering if we don't need to improve the granularity of what we are asking for.  What, exactly, does "improved hauling" entail.  I did a quick search and couldn't find anything other than the general description of the voting item but I swear I read it somewhere on these forums.  I figure the list has to exist somewhere.

As a career programmer myself, I like to have detailed lists of issues to work from.  You can't irritate me more than asking for something but not give me any specifications.  So I bring this up as a professional courtesy.

When I've had an issue with DF, it was a very specific case.  For example:

• I processed Rope Reed leaving 4 or so seeds.  This caused one-dwarf-per-seed to rush into the room, grab a seed, and carry it three steps to the seed stockpile I placed by my farmer's workshop.

...and then there's have what I would expect to happen:

• I would expect one dwarf to rush into the room and move the seeds to the seed stockpile.

...but I have thoughts about how this could work statistically:

• If there are x number of same-typed tasks (like Move Seed to Storage) where the items and the storage location are all within a certain range of each other one dwarf will queue up several of the tasks.  Since DF players really enjoy tweaking how their dwarves work the RAWs are a good place for the thresholds that would be used in such logic.  Something like SINGLE_DWARF_JOB_QUEUE_DISTANCE=5, SINGLE_DWARF_JOB_QUEUE_MAX_CT=4 would allow dwarves to queue up moving up to 4 empty bags from a kitchen to a bag stockpile if the distance from middle of the kitchen to the middle of the stockpile requires 5 or less moves.

So, this could then be refined to:

Improved Hauling

• Single Dwarf Job Queueing
  
  • I processed Rope Reed leaving 4 or so seeds.  This caused one-dwarf-per-seed to grab a seed and carry it three steps to the seed stockpile I placed by my farmer's workshop.
  • I would expect one dwarf to move all the seeds to the seed stockpile.
  • If there are x number of same-typed tasks (like Move Seed to Storage) where the items and the storage location are all within a certain range of each other one dwarf will queue up several of the tasks.  Since DF players really enjoy tweaking how their dwarves work the RAWs are a good place for the thresholds that would be used in such logic.  Something like SINGLE_DWARF_JOB_QUEUE_DISTANCE=5, SINGLE_DWARF_JOB_QUEUE_MAX_CT=4 would allow dwarves to queue up moving up to 4 empty bags from a kitchen to a bag stockpile if the distance from middle of the kitchen to the middle of the stockpile requires 5 or less moves.
• Job Item TSKing
  • I queued a rock table to be built expecting to get a dirorite door.  My mason grabbed an olivine rock that was further away from the workshop than the diorite in the stockpile adjacent to the diorite.
  • I would have expected him to take the stone from the stockpile adjacent to the workshop rather than what was closest to him when he decided he'd get around to building the door.
  • When TSKing an item for a job a dwarf should pick the item of that type closest to the workshop he will be working in, not closest to him when he decides to build the workshop.  This, of course, would be limited in use until pathing/distance calculating to be fixed.

So...I thought I'd just throw those out there as examples.  They're very specific things which can be tested for and checked off a list.  But the really good thing about them being separate items is we can decide each one's individual importance because, quite honestly - I having a wheelbarrow ain't gonna do us a darn bit of good when we have 4 dwarves with wheelbarrows run into the room to move 4 seeds, rather than 4 dwarves without wheelbarrows.  Therefore I wouldn't vote for wheelbarrows themselves until "Single Dwarf Job Queueing" was in place.

Thoughts?

[Mephansteras]

I think those are excellent points.

Best thing to do would be to get a Unified Hauling thread going, starting with what you posted there. Then we just have to have the vote link to that thread, which becomes the forum for all hauling related suggestions.

[Chrispy]

Or, we could just break up all the super-large suggestions into more manageable, smaller ones.

[Zwergner]

I play another game, Dystopia, and they have a suggestion forum (gander), and I'm partial to their voting system.  It's similar to what someone else suggested; you can vote on everything and you can give anywhere from  -1 to a +2 depending how much you like/dislike it.

i.e. as an example, let's say I think concentrating on hauling at this time is a horrible idea (not saying I do, this is an example).  I can express my opinion by rating it a -1.

IMO rating rather than voting is a better way to evaluate how you feel about something.

[MMad]

I'm wondering if we don't need to improve the granularity of what we are asking for.  What, exactly, does "improved hauling" entail.

[...]

So...I thought I'd just throw those out there as examples.  They're very specific things which can be tested for and checked off a list.  But the really good thing about them being separate items is we can decide each one's individual importance because, quite honestly - I having a wheelbarrow ain't gonna do us a darn bit of good when we have 4 dwarves with wheelbarrows run into the room to move 4 seeds, rather than 4 dwarves without wheelbarrows.  Therefore I wouldn't vote for wheelbarrows themselves until "Single Dwarf Job Queueing" was in place.

Thoughts?

I totally agree with the specifics of your hauling suggestion (you really should make a separate thread for brainstorming about hauling, btw), but I wonder if the point of this suggestion voting thingy shouldn't more be to give Toady an overall idea of what most people perceive to be the larger problem areas, and then let him figure out how he wants to improve it. Not least of all because noone else really knows how much of the game works, and any very detailed suggestion is likely to be unworkable on some point or another.

I agree that more details about the perceived problems and proposed ideas would be nice, but I think we should take care to remember the subtle difference between saying "this is what I think you should implement, in this way" and "this is what we think you should improve, and here are some ideas about solutions that might work". If nothing else, it's more fun reading the latter kind of suggestions.

I guess my main point (hidden as it is under much rambling) is that sometimes it's easier from a design perspective to have clearly defined problems; once you understand what the problem is, suggestions get a proper context and you can weigh them against other possible solutions that come to mind.

Also, note that this isn't aimed at your suggestion in particular - it sounds very sensible - but just a thought I've had about the nature of useful suggestions in general.

[Draco18s]

I'm wondering if we don't need to improve the granularity of what we are asking for.  What, exactly, does "improved hauling" entail.

Wheelbarrows, mine carts, stacking, all goes here.

Try searching wheelbarrows, mine carts, stacking, and the various numerous ideas that come up under HAULING for the obvious choice.

Yes, I checked each search.  Each link above used the search terms that make up the text of the link and each link contains AT LEAST ONE relevant thread on the first page.  Hauling in fact has 10 or more depending on if you count duplicates and semi-related items.

[Erom]

At the very least, I'd like to be able to vote negatively instead of positively, even if I still only get three votes. For example, I've voted for the two things that are most important to me in this game, and now I feel more strongly against some proposals than I feel in support for any of the remaining ones.

That said, I think the tool as is is sufficient - I'd rather have time rolled into DF rather than the DF suggestion tool.

[BatCountry]

Yeah, it does seem to be working just fine the way it is.  Many of the options which started at or near the bottom of the list have climbed to the top which shows that people actually are reading the whole list and not just voting for popularity.

Guess I should give more credit to the average smarts of the Dwarf Fortress user. 

[MMad]

At the very least, I'd like to be able to vote negatively instead of positively, even if I still only get three votes. For example, I've voted for the two things that are most important to me in this game, and now I feel more strongly against some proposals than I feel in support for any of the remaining ones.

If there is some kind of negative vote added, I think it's important to make it count as "I really don't want this stuff in the game" instead of "I don't think this is important right now". Otherwise it might unnecessarily muddle the water with "political" voting.

[Align]

IMO rating rather than voting is a better way to evaluate how you feel about something.

The only problem is that the majority of people will vote kneejerk reaction-style, and it just ends up as a binary yes/no, which is useless.

[Granite26]

IMO rating rather than voting is a better way to evaluate how you feel about something.

The only problem is that the majority of people will vote kneejerk reaction-style, and it just ends up as a binary yes/no, which is useless.

Or even more fun, vote up for their 3-4 pet projects and against things that will delay them, leaving everything with net 30 votes against..

[MetBoy]

Generally speaking, how many people dislike an idea is much much MUCH less important than how many do like an idea. This is why I like this system of choosing 3 things to vote in favor of, where rating would allow people to try and scuttle ideas they didn't like.

Also, the limitation of 3 votes forces people to sit down and THINK about which they want to see most, without being as agonizing a decision as choosing where to place one vote.