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[Deathworks]

Hello Tormy!

Deathworks, with all my respect, I dont think that SimCity is anything like DF actually... ;)

Mephansteras already pointed out some of the aspects that make fortress mode and SimCity somewhat comparable.

The individualization of the simulated individuals was always a concern for SimCity, although it was very abstract in the beginning. With SimCity 4 Deluxe, that aspect made great progress and SimCity Societies sounded as if it was to actually intensify it.

Another aspect is that keeping your populace happy is also a major goal in both games, or at least something that makes life in both much easier.

Then, there is the aspect of lack of control. SimCity is the only construction game where you do not have complete control over things. You can place the infrastructure, but you can not determine which industries settle, or whether you get shops or office buildings. That is determined by the populace of your city. This is mirrored in nearly all production orders you give out in DF: You can't determine what engravings are put on the floor, what decorations on items show, etc.

In addition, the happiness system of both includes the effects of double-edged swords: heavy industry is an easy to attract source of income in SimCity, but the pollution it causes causes problems with property value and attracting richer citizens - and also makes your residents unhappy. Noise from workshops can disturb the sleep of dwarves making them unhappy.

Similarly, managing traffic is also a major issue for both. In SimCity, traffic jams and lots of traffic stress out people living near the affected streets and of course those caught in those traffic jams. In DF, traffic influences game play a bit more indirectly but can be as devastating, especially when it leads to miasma pollution.

Because of all these aspects, I do believe that it is fair to compare these two projects.

Deathworks

[TheDeadlyShoe]

DF is no match for X-Com.  Period.  Don't get me wrong, DF is a great game, but X-Com is one of the best ever.  It's easily a match for all-time greats like StarCraft, System Shock, and Star Control 2, and not much from any genre can compete with the likes of those.

x-com is nice and all, but there's a reason there's so many remakes rather than people just playing the original...having to redo inventory every mission is (by itself) a game-killing issue by modern standards.  that was about par for course back in the day but it's caused X-com to age very badly.

even Dwarf Fortress has a higher useability standard than that, arcane keyboard interface or not.

[Tormy]

Hello Tormy!

Deathworks, with all my respect, I dont think that SimCity is anything like DF actually...

Mephansteras already pointed out some of the aspects that make fortress mode and SimCity somewhat comparable.

The individualization of the simulated individuals was always a concern for SimCity, although it was very abstract in the beginning. With SimCity 4 Deluxe, that aspect made great progress and SimCity Societies sounded as if it was to actually intensify it.

Another aspect is that keeping your populace happy is also a major goal in both games, or at least something that makes life in both much easier.

Then, there is the aspect of lack of control. SimCity is the only construction game where you do not have complete control over things. You can place the infrastructure, but you can not determine which industries settle, or whether you get shops or office buildings. That is determined by the populace of your city. This is mirrored in nearly all production orders you give out in DF: You can't determine what engravings are put on the floor, what decorations on items show, etc.

In addition, the happiness system of both includes the effects of double-edged swords: heavy industry is an easy to attract source of income in SimCity, but the pollution it causes causes problems with property value and attracting richer citizens - and also makes your residents unhappy. Noise from workshops can disturb the sleep of dwarves making them unhappy.

Similarly, managing traffic is also a major issue for both. In SimCity, traffic jams and lots of traffic stress out people living near the affected streets and of course those caught in those traffic jams. In DF, traffic influences game play a bit more indirectly but can be as devastating, especially when it leads to miasma pollution.

Because of all these aspects, I do believe that it is fair to compare these two projects.

Deathworks

Hello Deathworks! 
Okay, fair enough I guess.   

[Chthonic]

even Dwarf Fortress has a higher useability standard than that, arcane keyboard interface or not.

On the other hand (not to knock DF) in X-Com it was a whole lot easier to convince your soldiers to carry the weapons you wanted them to carry . . .

[Retro42]

Could you imagine X-com's Chryssalids in DF....

Dwarf cancels Sleep: Giving birth to Chryssalid. x50

[Chthonic]

Could you imagine X-com's Chryssalids in DF....

Dwarf cancels Sleep: Giving birth to Chryssalid. x50

DF does need monsters with more challenging behavior.  I just stopped a simultaneous dragon attack/goblin siege with six competent marksdwarves clad in kitten-leather armor firing wooden ammunition.  On open, flat ground.  One casualty.

Chryssalids . . . so fast.  So scary.

[Puck]

I still think DF is one of the best games out there, for several reasons. Mostly, because it gave me the feeling of innovative gameplay when I first saw it. And seeing I'm around since Pong and Missile Command, I guess that means something.

X-Com for instance was innovative, too, but the things you could do were, imho, more limited than in DF. Also it was rather restrictive about it's gameplay: Shine in the squad shooter part of the game, or fail. (in DF i can -without the editing the ini files ^^- decide what i want to do, to some extent, and just not compete in parts i dont like).

Imho DF needs a streamlined UI, and maybe a little bit of a graphics update, and its the best game ev4r.

[Draco18s]

TV Tropes is so bad, they've got an article about that phenomenon: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArchiveBinge

Damn you!!!
Also, I think you meant this page.

[Weev]

Back on topic, I feel the thing that makes DF so good is that it harks back to the golden years of 1985-1995 when computer games had to be creative to be truly successful. After that, creativity amongst game designers seems to have almost died out, at least in commercial ventures.

To be the black lamb, I must disagree. Much of the newer games have tons of behind the scenes footwork, and our pretty little heads just zoom in on the flashy colors.
It's true that the graphics, and engines they run on, are constricting, but unlike dwarf fortress, they are meant to grab those gamers that do not want to think about the metagame.  Dwarf Fortress seems to be upfront with that bringing the metagame to the forefront, and making you prioritize your game plan.  I bet that while many fortress players have similar starting looks, none of them have a identical play style.
Sure, you can  train everyone as a marksdwarf, but thanks to Mr.RNG, that flashing gob Stouzu over there will still get to them to shake their hands.  With their heads in his other fist.
Sure, you can mass produce infantry in most RTS games.  but thanks to a rock-paper-scissors counterweight system, those archerers are still going to decimate your forces.
...and dont get me started on MMO/RPGS. They have more metagaming then you have memories.
My last word is that while creativity with games certainly has become more "behind the curtain"  It's still there.  And I'm still waiting out for my Zombie Survival RTS. (No, sadly DF dosn't cover it)

[userpay]

And I'm still waiting out for my Zombie Survival RTS. (No, sadly DF dosn't cover it)

Oddly enough that idea interests me.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

keep an eye on Fort Zombie over at Kerberos.... and of course the discerning zombie enthusiast will want to check into Left 4 Dead in a month or two

[Tormy]

keep an eye on Fort Zombie over at Kerberos.... and of course the discerning zombie enthusiast will want to check into Left 4 Dead in a month or two

Well SotS was a decent game, so prolly Fort Zombie wont be bad either. 

[Old School Gamer]

Zombie-Roguelike. Zomband.

http://www.zooptek.net/drupal/?q=node/15

[tigrex]

I tried it.  It's nice, but for some reason it's not quite what I wanted from a zombie-themed roguelike.  It's hard to explain, I suppose. 

X-Com was a great game, but in the end there were so few permutations of levels and enemies that I felt I was just repeating the same mission over and over so as not to lose points for ignoring it.  DF has a lot more variety between forts, and moddable content.  On the other hand, how cool would it be to play DF ambushes using X-Com's combat system? 

[Tormy]

I felt I was just repeating the same mission over and over so as not to lose points for ignoring it. 

Basically almost all [if not all of them?] "mission based" games are like that.