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[Old School Gamer]

Fair to say?  I think so.  It's better than X-Com was, I think.  Once it's a little further along and you can attack other sites and do other more advanced things, it's going to be better than really any other game.  I think this is an accurate statement as well.

ASCII graphics is what made it possible, among other things (complex game elements are not at all limited by creating graphical elements and making them mesh/ "look good").

But really, DF is head and shoulders above any other game.   One game that is close I think is Galciv2, but other than that there don't seem to be any others.

I realize that this is kind of just an "obligatory praise" thread, but I think it's an accurate statement.

[thvaz]

GalCiv will never be better than Civilization, in any instance.

And DF is an amazing game. When v1.0 is done, it will be the game I always dreamt of playing.

[Yanlin]

Dwarf fortress is better than masturbation.

[Draco18s]

Dwarf fortress is better than masturbation.

That's debatable, because I bet playing DF 50 times a month won't lower your chances of certain types of cancer.

[GlennS]

Dwarf Fortress is still hard to play, and very frustrating when orders don't seem to work properly.  It's got a long way to go.

I would put it in the category of building games, and in that it's not as good as Dungeon Keeper 2 yet, and probably not as good as the Sims 2 either.  But I prefer it to Theme Park and Sim City and Evil Genius, and I'll certainly still be playing it long after I get bored with Spore.

As for X-Com, I guess they have the same complexity of lots of systems layered onto each-other, but I don't think the comparison quite fits.  I would say that I'm more attached to more dwarves than my marines.  Goblins, however, don't instil the same sort of terror as 'hidden movement', screams in background, civilian gets shot, 'Urist McDwarf is under mind control', culminating in 40 magna pack explosives that I painstakingly primed before the mission going off inside my landing craft.

[Duke 2.0]

Dwarf fortress is better than masturbation.

That's debatable, because I bet playing DF 50 times a month won't lower your chances of certain types of cancer.

 Then again, you don't worry if your mother catches you playing DF.

 Then again...

[olemars]

Dwarf fortress is better than masturbation.

That's debatable, because I bet playing DF 50 times a month won't lower your chances of certain types of cancer.

DF v1.0 will be the cure for cancer. And you can kill hundreds of kittens when playing DF, masturbation only kills one.

Back on topic, I feel the thing that makes DF so good is that it harks back to the golden years of 1985-1995 when computer games had to be creative to be truly successful. After that, creativity amongst game designers seems to have almost died out, at least in commercial ventures.

[Old School Gamer]

Back on topic, I feel the thing that makes DF so good is that it harks back to the golden years of 1985-1995 when computer games had to be creative to be truly successful. After that, creativity amongst game designers seems to have almost died out, at least in commercial ventures.

I definitely agree,  DF makes me think of the games made during that time..  the thing about games from back then is that while the presentation and UI weren't as good as they are today, the way that the games were designed made it feasible to have some very innovative, imaginative, and complex systems in the games.

For instance, if a gaming studio of today made a tile-based Ultima-style RPG game with $4 million today, I personally believe that they could make a game which is 5x better than the first-person shooter or RTS eye candy-fest kinds of games that they now make.

A large part of what made games good back then is that the framework that the games were laid within was pretty simple, thereby making it possible to make the gameplay and gameworld quite complex.  Nowadays, they make the framework complex, and they end up only being able to make the world and gameplay simple.

Nowadays they're building games with their materials basically being whole rooms of houses, whereas back in the day they were using nails, bricks, boards, and glue.  A kind of stilted analogy, but when you're building with only rooms, you're not going to make anything new, just the same houses as before.

Part of the reason that DF is what it is is that it's made with glue, boards, bricks and so on.  Hell, I think Toady even mixes the glue himself.

The only games worth playing today I think are those in which the designers hearken back to the same kind of mindset that people who made games in the 80s-90s were in.  It could just be nostalgia, but personally I think that the craft of game-making has degenerated to some degree (could Microsoft be to blame for this to some large degree?);  but with indie games like DF, Aquaria, and many others coming out of the woodwork today, I think we'll be in good shape again soon.

Ramble, ramble, ramble.. hell it's more fun to talk about games sometimes today than it is to play them.

[tigrex]

After that, creativity amongst game designers seems to have almost died out, at least in commercial ventures.

Agreed^2.

These days games make more money, but games are becoming more and more like crappy movies, all hype and no satisfaction.

Combat in X-Com is more detailed and tactical than DF.  Apart from that, DF has far superior base-building, trading and worldgen goodness.

[Ubersoldat]

DF as it is right now is an okay game, it lacks the depth that will hopefully come later. Also, it's hard exactly to say that, for example, Dwarf Fortress is better than X-com or Civilization or something, since all three are quite different games. X-com is a kickass tactical alien killing game, Civilization is a kickass grand strategy game, and Dwarf Fortress is well on it's way to being a kickass drunken midgets getting killed game, with elements of the other two. They all do their job quite nicely and cause people to waste hours upon hours of spare time.

Also, DF does have its merits versus wanking. Mostly because of the replay value.

[Chthonic]

Dwarf-Com: HFS Defense?

[Neonivek]

Dwarf Fortress is lesser then all those games...

Look lets not overhype Dwarf Fortress here... we are looking at an UNFINISHED game that has the potential to be great.

We barely even have a semblence of a story in Dwarf Fortress and along with its weak gameplay... it really doesn't hold water.

If I bought Dwarf Fortress for five dollars Id think I got ripped off.

I realise that there is quite a bit of tunnel vision going on here but still... Lets not confuse what Dwarf Fortress is going to be with what it is right now.

Don't get me wrong, I really wish I didn't have to put this sentence in, I am anxiously looking forward to Dwarf Fortress once it is closer to being finished and then it could be better then SIMILAR GAMES!!!

Don't compare Dwarf Fortress to X-Com or Civilisation (Ultima on the otherhand... If Dwarf Fortress finally gets "Story") they are completely different games with some elements are similar...

[McDoomhammer]

HERETIC!

Seriously, though, I think you might be disappointed if you expect DF to 'get story'.  I'm fairly sure (and, indeed, hope) that the sandbox is just going to get bigger.

[Neonivek]

Seriously, though, I think you might be disappointed if you expect DF to 'get story'.  I'm fairly sure (and, indeed, hope) that the sandbox is just going to get bigger.

Where are my pancakes?

Check the Development notes, it is all in there.

Though I guess I say story very loosely...

[frostedfire]

HERETIC!

Seriously, though, I think you might be disappointed if you expect DF to 'get story'.  I'm fairly sure (and, indeed, hope) that the sandbox is just going to get bigger.

Iiiii'm baaaackk...

sorry about manorcurl people, uni got in the way

wouldn't mind if we got the odd scenario to play on though, like you did in sim city when you were getting run down on sandboxes and wanted a refreshing change :p