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[ravensgrace]

This discussion was moved here to avoid topic disruption and/or thread derailment.

So you're saying a child as old as nine or ten can keep track of every single abstract thing in DF, but because he's never seen an actual human body being dismembered, he won't understand or be disturbed by the thought?

I know what you're saying, but it works both ways. Children have extremely active imaginations and are often very GOOD at being affected by abstract representations of things. I remember as a young child being kind of disturbed myself by very simplistic and even comical representations of violent things.

Also, you say that kids won't have any sort of issue with {Urist McBabyDwarf's Head} because they've never been directly exposed to beheaded infants before, yet they'll understand and be able to work with things like querns, screw pumps, fictional crops, a couple dozen types of rock they've never heard of, and various other things which either don't exist in reality or that the kid has never seen before in his life?

[ravensgrace]

G-Flex,

If you dislike the topic name then please suggest a new one, or create another thread and I'll respond there.

Edit: Title updated to better reflect discussion topic

[G-Flex]

I'm confused and this is coming off as kind of spiteful.

I never said that ASCII graphic violence will have some sort of long-term detrimental impact on a child. I'm saying that a child capable of understanding the abstract world and object representation DF has to the extent of being able to play the game will be able to (at least partly) understand the gory aspects as well even without real prior exposure to the real thing, at least at a reasonable age. In this sense I'm disagreeing with the assessments you've posted earlier.

In other words, I don't think saying "a child won't be disturbed by dismemberment in the game because it requires imagination and the child hasn't been exposed to that type of violence" is very solid. This doesn't mean I think that being exposed to that sort of thing is going to turn a kid into a serial murderer or anything.

I mean, you wanted to come up with a way to clean up the game to make it more child-friendly, and I thought some of what you came up with was somewhat inconsistent/flawed. Whether or not the idea itself is good in whichever way is another matter.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

I am not quite sure whether modifying the game is actually what makes it really child-friendly.

After all, the really problematic aspects (besides the alcohol) are actually kobold thieves, goblin snatchers/sieges, and megabeast attacks. Getting kobolds and megabeasts extinct during world gen is not that difficult, so that only goblins pose a problem.

Once you have removed the above three aspects, there is no actual need for wanton murder and mutilation in the core game (at least in fortress mode), as the main quest would be solely developing your resource management and optimizing trade and aesthetics of your fortress. Renaming the alcoholic beverages to make them juice is probably the only mod I really see necessary for this.

On the general question about harm to children's development, I can only say that I believe that no harm will befall the child IF it plays with an adult present who is willing to answer all the questions asked by the child. I think you could even play with the violent aspects IF you are willing to explain to the child why the goblins are so mean and why you have to use force against them in self-defense.

If you look at all the instances where child development ended in a disaster this way or that way, I think you will always find that the parents and the surroundings did not pay attention to the child in question or at best just cared for superficial performance issues (especially with the suicidal ones).

Deathworks

[Draigh]

Adult supervision and explanations do help when raising a child. But there is also a tendency for character-environment interaction. A child with violent tendencies prefers violent games, which then strengthens those tendencies. Also the other way around: a child with strong social inclinations would prefer more social activities.
As for the ability to envision things and experience things from a different point of view, I would suggest to look up on Piaget's theory for the basics on that. Around the age of 11 years they reach the formal operational stage of cognitive development, which means their thought processes are more or less similar to an adult of their own culture. Children are still more creative and explorative which will enhance sensitivity for external stimuli, including (violent) games.

Personally.. I don't think you would be able to make this game very child-friendly without kicking everything out that makes the game worthwhile. Even if its only because the hammerdwarf might go off on a justice rampage or someone else in a tantrum, with all consequences.

As for child development becoming a disaster... it rarely is that simple. There could have been something different with the child to begin with, why he responds worse to the parents. Which then creates a negative feedback loop in which parents either use harsher parenting styles or more neglecting ones, which then enforces the behavior.
Psychological research shows children and adults often have slightly different responses to certain experiences (like punishment, pain and hurting/helping others) which then pushes them in the socially unaccepted behavior, because it feels rewarding to them. So it seems there is a biological predisposition towards extreme behavior in those people, which get activated in the right (unsupportive) environment. Not saying that everyone with the biological trigger will become homicidal maniacs though.



sorry for the rant btw
Just noticed the topic and you both might wanted to have this bit before starting a shouting match...

[PTTG??]

...he he he...
Have you played any of Toady One's other games? I really encourage it.
(F.Y.I.: don't run them and DF at the same time- most computers don't have a sufficient Awesomeness Buffer.

[ravensgrace]

In other words, I don't think saying "a child won't be disturbed by dismemberment in the game because it requires imagination and the child hasn't been exposed to that type of violence" is very solid.

Perhaps you meant to use the word experience instead of imagination here?  If not then please include an actual quote, because I've never written anything remotely similar.

[ravensgrace]

...he he he...
Have you played any of Toady One's other games? I really encourage it.
(F.Y.I.: don't run them and DF at the same time- most computers don't have a sufficient Awesomeness Buffer.

LOL, I played a few of them.  Cross Stompers was the first, and it crashed about 10 minutes into the game from all the sinners!

[G-Flex]

Perhaps you meant to use the word experience instead of imagination here?  If not then please include an actual quote, because I've never written anything remotely similar.

I already included the part about experience (exposure) and if you want to know where I got "it's okay because it requires imagination" from, here are your own words:

The term, excessive, can obviously be interpreted a thousand different ways, and everyone has their own opinion.  To clarify what I mean when using it, here's my definition:  Anything clearly stated in the game that goes above and beyond simple descriptions, or isn't left up to the imagination.

(emphasis mine)

[ravensgrace]

I'll use my children as an example here, and specifically, my 8 and 10 year old.

Starvation/Death
- Knows the words
- Understands the concept
- Examples: Not feeding the goldfish, gerbil, or cat leads to starvation.  Continued starvation leads to their death, burial, and mourning.

Hunting/Killing
- Knows the words
- Understands the concept
- Examples: When our cat hunts and kills furry woodland creatures, fish, and birds.

Decapitation/Dismemberment
- Doesn't know the words
- Understands the concept
- Examples: When our cat leaves behind a head, legs or various other bits after snacking on the kill.

Side note: Pets are great teaching tools about nature, consequences, and other areas.

Rape/Murder
- Doesn't know the words
- No understanding of the concept
- Examples: What's that?

Torture
- Knows the word
- Limited understanding
- Examples: Sibling taunts/rivalry.

Evil
- Knows the word
- Limited understanding
- Examples: Do you mean like the devil?

This is likely to be my final post on this topic.  I've spent way more time than intended trying to clear up any misunderstanding.  I hope these examples help, but if not, then I'll agree to disagree.

Now, on to actually making the changes that I needed!