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[fmunoz]

"Good" and "Bad" as ethical qualities do not have an absolute existance, but are dependant on ethical standards which can and will differ from individual to individual and even more greatly between different cultures.

I disagree.  Good and evil are "atomic".

I disagree with your disagreeing and would like to know why you think as you do as well as what you mean by that statement.

Continue.

They are ideas that cannot be broken down any further.  Like the perception of the color "blue".

Yeah.. just ask any Japanese about what colours the go semaphore ligth is...

[Mohreb el Yasim]

Putting it in perspective (and to quote G-Flex himself): killing kittens in Dwarf Fortress isn't really unethical as long as you realize that you shouldn't actually DO that in real life.

it makes me think about something, eating a cat in real life is it less ethical then eating a cow?

[Tcei]

it makes me think about something, eating a cat in real life is it less ethical then eating a cow?

That depends on ones culture and personal beliefs. In most of the western world eating cows is perfectly fine, but  eating cats is often seen as an act of cruelty or insanity. In some cultures the cow is seen as a sacred animal and is never to be killed and eaten. Cats, meanwhile, Im fairly certain are eaten in some parts of the world. 

I personally have no issue with eating cows, but the thought of eating a cat is out of the question. Thats because cows go in the category of food, while cats sit in the category of pet in my mind. While I may be willing to eat fluffy if in a very dire life-or-death situation, I'd also feel really guilty about it, even tho I dont with cows *shrug*

[codezero]

I think anything that eats meat (like cats and dogs) would taste pretty crap.  Lizards don't taste very good, and they only eat insects. What vegetarian animal don't we eat? I could sure eat some bugs bunny right now.

I wonder if a dwarf would eat a corpse if it was starving to death? Maybe there should be a threshold where ethics slides in DF.

[Granite26]

Just be careful where you take the 'what's ok to eat' argument.  Pigs are usually considered to be smarter than dogs.

If you really want a good morality topic, try elves.  Here is a race of beings coming to you with a morality you don't understand, and asking, for their sake, that you limit your activities that they consider immoral (cutting down trees).  Obviously they feel strongly about this.  They are willing to go to war over it.  It's a morality that dwarves are incapable of understanding, especially since within the context of the game the elves have no way to feel as they do. 

Their desires are truly alien to the dwarves, and thus the player.  Is it because they think that trees have souls?  We can look in the raws and see they don't.  Is it some form of misguided environmentalism?   No, the trees sprout back up almost instantaniously, even if you clearcut the map.

The dwarves' (and thus the player's) only motivation to accede to the wishes of the elves is the threat of a war, which given the elves martial prowess, amounts to little more than target practice. 

Given that, is it moral to give in to their requests?  Does their impotence make it more or less moral?

Obviously the alignment system in this entirely player based.  The morality your fortress exhibits is the one you give it.

sorry for the rant.

[Theusje]

What shouldn't be eaten ... anything that doens't digest.

[Sunday]

I had a long post about ethics and such, but screw it.

Anyway, I was being sarcastic earlier, and I guess I do suck since several people didn't get it.  Next time I'll be more obvious.  Maybe add "This is a sarcastic post" at the end.

PS.  Cats are eaten in China.  I ate some while I was there.  I don't feel bad about it at all.

There is one dish (that I never ate) called Tiger and Dragon Battle.  It's a snake and a kitten cooked so that they are entangled and look as if they're fighting.  I think that's possibly the coolest name for a dish ever.  I look forward to the day when recipes in DF have random names.

[Shurikane]

A self-respecting dwarf eats everything but the four legs of the dinner table. 

[Zorgn]

Personally, no, I don't see the need to feel guilty about killing things which don't exist. DF animals are not alive. They're extremely simplistic representations.

Prove, to my satisfaction, that you, as well as any other person besides me in this topic, exist.

Now, as I have never seen anyone successfully prove that that they exist, why should anyone feel guilty about killing cats in DF or their neighbors IRL?

[Eater of Vermin]

If it sustains life, it's potential tucker.

That's not to say everything and anything edible should be eaten.  But I don't believe that there's anything that "should not be eaten under any circumstances."  When survival is a concern then so-called ethics become a luxury.

In game terms, I have no problems with my dwarves eating pet kittens, dogs or what have you.  They're cheap, abundant and easily replaced, after all.  If a significant number of my dwarves were suddenly afflicted with affection for two-legged rhino lizards and started cooing about how cuddly they are, I would NOT tell the others they can't have them for snacks.

On the other hand...  dragons, hydras and the like are definitely not on my Butcher's Shopping List.  They're of limited numbers, "endangered species" if you will and as such munching down on them would decrease the biodiversity of my fortress.  I like a bit of diversity, it makes Zoos more interesting.   

Come to that, I'd have no problems with my dwarves raiding fresh tombs for dorf-snacks if the farms/hunters failed and starvation was setting in.  I'd be a bit worried if that was their preferred diet though...

It's a lot like real life, actually.

[Haven]

Speaking entirely within the confines of DF here, as this is DF discussion, rather than off topic.

Anything that doesn't get a burial spot is fair game to my dwarves. This also extends to elves, humans, goblins, and other sentients that would probably be buried were their liasons killed on my turf in peacetime. Things that aren't buried are edible, though I generally don't do much hunting in my fort.

If it came down to it (and was supported by mechanics), I would force-feed my dwarves dead sentients to keep the fort alive. They're dead now, they really don't need it. It's no different from regular meat variables in DF, that I'm aware of at least.

[Muz]

Lol, guys, I was being sarcastic. There, I changed my signature to the one I use on every forum. A bit harsh, but almost necessary seeing how my fingers tend to accidentally ignite forum threads

"When survival is a concern then so-called ethics become a luxury."
Actually, I like that quote too. That could come in very handy, especially when people talk about third-world pollution and stuff.

[Wolfius]

This actually reminds me of a news spot I saw on TV a few days ago - some folks had abandoned their pet rabbits on a University's grounds, and being rabbits, they multiplied until they were a major nuisance, doing lots of damage and spilling over into surrounding neighbourhoods.

Things are fairly tame, too; didn't seem at all scared of people.

Now, it sounds like the current proposal is to try and sterilise them; a cull apparently out of the question.



I can't be the only person who was thinking "renewable self-tending food source" - I'm sure that city has soup kitchens or the like for the poor and homeless, right? I bet they'd appreciate the extra meat, and it shouldn't be too hard to fine a profitable use for their pelts.

[Nesoo]

I seem to remember having read in the news somewhere that plants are capable of feeling pain, the example they gave was that a carrot will actualy flinch when cut and grass will actualy try to avoid being stepped on..

I don't know about any research on such, but... there are things that vegetarians don't want us to know. (The site itself is probably NSFW, but this particular comic isn't bad.)

[G-Flex]

Anybody who thinks a plant can "feel pain" needs to seriously read up on neurology and remind himself that plants don't have any.