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Author Topic: RogueLife (formely Spogue)  (Read 19213 times)

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Spogue (was RogueSpore)
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2008, 07:44:03 am »

Actually, no. Have it say "SPOGUE", in a rounded green-white font, and have the O be shaped like a spork, with a stub of the handle going down.
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sjmarshy

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Re: Spogue (was RogueSpore)
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2008, 07:50:18 am »

I'm not sure I'm a fan of the Spork idea, seems a bit...overdone?
Other than that, I'd love to see where this project goes, sounds like an amazing idea. I wish I could help with it only I'm awful at programming, never got past BASIC despite many attempts to learn C++, and the soon to be happening removal of my currently voluminous free time.
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Areyar

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Re: Spogue (was RogueSpore)
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2008, 08:40:59 am »

I'd vote for Python
... got a book or two lying around which I done way too little with.

Love the idea of alternative biochemistry.
this should be expanded to include more possible primary energy sources for biologies evolving in extreme, unearthly, even fantastic!, environments.

Such as:
chemical energy :
from vulcanic activity, which is a result of heat gererated in a rocky planet by whatever means gravity:tidal/pressure, radioactivity, etc.
photosynthesis+ :
different spectra of usable radiation would cause different optimizations of photosynthetic molecules.
(Different atmospheres/hydrospheres/exoticspheres and different spectra of stars determine which frequencies carry the most energy.)
surface scum is green because it mainly utilised red light, while deepwater algea are reddish by comparison as they are more attuned to the green and blue light that manages to penetrate to more depth.
Piezo electrical energy: crystals can generate power from light, allowing one proven way to get power from light that is not biological. maybe allowing machine or crystalline life. (IIRC read a nice novel with a crystalflower growing on the moon)

Just some ideas.  :-[
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Deon

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Re: Spogue (was RogueSpore)
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2008, 08:58:12 am »

Hey, even a man like me knows python a little (I've modded Civ4) so if you start it in python I could help.

And actually photosynthesis is not common to "fantastic" enviroments, it was one of the first and most common ways to obtain energy :).

And if you speak of extreme conditions, don't forget Archae way of life :). Methanogenesis is the way to live in anaerobic enviroments :).

Actually I study "radiophysics and medical technology" and there's a lot of microbiology, biochemistry and other stuff going on here. Yeah, I study bad :(, but I still have a lot of material and I will definitely insult your work saying here and there "it's impossible"/"it's not working this way"/"why haven't you include this" etc.. Well, I hope some healthy criticism could help :).

Also "photosynthesis" should be considered as "Carbon fixation" and all possible ways to do it should be included.

Quote
Piezo electrical energy
With my small knowledge I still highly doubt this.
But why not to include some fantasy things... Just make it hard to disprove. :D
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 09:01:59 am by Deon »
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Soulwynd

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Re: Spogue (was RogueSpore)
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2008, 09:04:06 am »

I was designing a game, that while it wasn't about evolution, it was about exploration and DNA handling. It was designed to be a MUD or an online rogue-like since there would be no 'rooms' as a traditional mud.

If I am to design this rogue-like and program it, first of all, no stages at all. Continuous gameplay from beginning to end. Secondly, I think it's pretty sad and rather pointless to have a 'cell stage', specially for a rogue-like. And at last, all body parts and creatures should be player designed and shared. Creature statistics would be extrapolated from said parts and design.

I have a programmer's mindset for games, so when I design something I already have the program going on in my head, something most modern developers lack, they want something and put their slaves to work, ending up in crappy results. If you have ever seen a design team staff meeting, you will know what I'm talking about.

So, down to the programming goods. I will discuss body parts later, since we need a very very open design to allow freedom of design. I will start with evolution and classification. We need the system to understand what species are related to whatever other species we have, so it can in turn, add a random elements of evolution as time goes on. The best way to achieve this, with programming in mind, is to have an Object Oriented design. So a sub-specie inherits traits and body parts from a specie.

Real life classification goes like this:

Domain -> Kingdom -> Phylum -> Class -> Order -> Family -> Genus -> Species

But for us all it maters are object parent and children, so we can keep a very open classification design. I will start with an ant as example, since I think it's the smallest size we can begin playing with (unless you people really insist in having a 'cell stage'). So we start like this:

Code: [Select]
Object name: Insecta /* using real life class name */
Size: 1 /* arbitrary size number saying 'this is fucking small by default' */
Flags: Exoskeleton /* this is where flags like 'Vertebrate' and other meaningful things go in, we need to define these later. */
Body: None /* Nothing here yet */

Now, remember objects inherit data from its parent.

Code: [Select]
Object name: Apocrita /* Again real life stuff */
Parent: Insecta /* Inherits things from that object such as size, flags, etc */
Body:
 |||
*##-@
 |||

/*
* = Head
## = Abdomen (Alitrunk if you want to get technical)
- = Petiole
@ = Butt (or gaster, again, technical stuff)
| = Leg
*/
All (or almost, don't know) Apocritae share this body design.

Code: [Select]
Object name: Vespoidea
Parent: Apocrita
Body:
  |||
>*##-@-
  |||

/*
Added mouth/antennae/eyes/pheromone sensors/etc. The - at the end is a stinger.
Note that it should inherit the basic body shape, so players would only have to add
the stinger and headstuff. (even if I think the headstuff should already be in the
subclass, but this is just an example)
*/

And finally:

Code: [Select]
Object name: Formiclae (Ant, yeah)
Parent: Vespoidea
Body:
  |||
>*##-@-
  |||


/* The only real change would be the stinger becoming mostly ineffective. So the - at the end got replaced by a sucky one. */

Now the beauty of this is that, lets say, we want a wasp. All we have to do is:

Code: [Select]
Object name: Wasp
Parent: Vespoidea
Flags: Parasite Breeding /* Flags get added and could also be removed if needed */
Body:
  |||
>*##-@-
  |||

 V      <- Frontal view with lil wings added
/*\

And lets say we want a soldier ant, all we have to do is:

Code: [Select]
Object name: Soldier Ant
Parent: Formiclae
Size: 2

Simple.

And that's pretty much my idea for how to generate creatures. I will discuss body parts creation, handling, and stats next time, I have to go to lunch in a couple hours then work. And yeah, I will make sure it can handle pretty crazy chemistry stuff, like legs that can breathe methanol.
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Areyar

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Re: Spogue (was RogueSpore)
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2008, 10:32:05 am »

Hey Deon. Yeah civ4 is where those books came from. :D
I realise PS is not excluded to fantastic environs, the fantastic part was more regarding the piezovoltaic energy and such.

I actually study biochemistry with a plant-gnenetics specialization actually, but have already forgotten much. ;)
Which's why Spore gets under my fingernails probably.  :-[

PS does not need to be exclusively carbon fixation, it litterally means "to create with light", so any conversion of innert molucules into biomolecules can be considdered PS.
On Earth though this is carbon into sugars.
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CptFastbreak

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Re: Spogue (was RogueSpore)
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2008, 10:50:30 am »

I would really like to contribute but I have a strong, personal dislike for Python. Maybe at least some parts could be in C++? IMO it would really benefit such a project to take advantage of a really object-oriented language.

I am a computational linguist with an active project in C++, so I can claim some experience with the language, and also with porting (WiXP - OSX).

Edit: If I may add to the suggestions, it should also be easier to lose than Spore so that the evolutionary choices you make really matter in the long term.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 10:52:51 am by CptFastbreak »
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Areyar

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Re: Spogue (was RogueSpore)
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2008, 12:16:59 pm »

I second that motion...the losing is fun part, I know *FRUMPLE* about C++.
Losing could in fact be required for evolution bottleneck 'evolve boost'. ;)
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Zemat

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Re: Spogue (was RogueSpore)
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2008, 12:24:27 pm »

Greetings, all!

I really like this idea, and would like to offer free hosting of the source code/binary, as well as the website, forum and whatever else is needed.

Hopefully, this idea will develop into something interesting.

I'll take your offer ;D But wait a little, we don't want to waste your bandwidth until the project gains momentum and we have something to show. I'll PM you when we are ready to setup a website or forum.

I would really like to contribute but I have a strong, personal dislike for Python. Maybe at least some parts could be in C++? IMO it would really benefit such a project to take advantage of a really object-oriented language.

I am a computational linguist with an active project in C++, so I can claim some experience with the language, and also with porting (WiXP - OSX).

Edit: If I may add to the suggestions, it should also be easier to lose than Spore so that the evolutionary choices you make really matter in the long term.

Hey, I dislike Python too but since we have more possible contributors with Python skills it would be unwise not to use it. Nevertheless Python accepts modules done in C and C++ so we could use your skills to speed up and optimize slow game modules by rewriting them into C++.

I think I'll close soon the poll on languages since it seems obvious we will end up working in python so the faster we start coding the better. I did a quick survey of what python tools we could use and ended up with this:

- Python 2.5 (compatible with Windows and Linux)
- PyGame 1.8.1 (supports 2d graphics with SDL, no 3d stuff)
- (tentative) PyUI 0.95 (allows us to create quick windows-like user interfaces)

Stackless Python sounds interesting (from wikipedia) but their site appears to be down and I suspect it doesn't have the same amount of supporting modules vanilla Python has so we better stick with the original.

I don't like the idea of players having the ability to choose the traits and body parts for their creature. I want a more "natural" approach were random mutations along with the environment chose which parts the creature ends up with. The game would be for the player to manipulate their creatures behavior in order to favor some mutations over the others by making creatures with desirable traits survive and those with undesirable traits die.

Nevertheless, I'll put a poll on the possible evolution mechanics (player manipulation vs random mutation) so that people can choose what they want to see in the game.

Now a more direct question: Would you prefer if a put the poll in another thread or do you want to choose in this thread? I don't want to fill up the "other games" forums with Spogue related posts but it's quite difficult to handle several polls in a single thread.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 12:26:22 pm by Zemat »
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Deon

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Re: Spogue (was RogueSpore)
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2008, 12:29:33 pm »

I agree that C >> Python but I think that there'll be too few of C-coders to complete the grand project. Are you sure you can bear it alone? I was just too lazy when I was taught C++ (:() so if you decide to jump there this could be a boost for me to start to learn it again. But also it may end with nothing while I can already try to help with Python today.
The most weird part of python is "formatting" with tabulations. I mean, really, bring another occasional [TAB] and a structure is broken. Other than that, it's a nice language IMO.
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Asheron

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Re: Spogue (was RogueSpore)
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2008, 12:46:37 pm »

I would be willing to learn c++ if it's that of a big deal. I would need someone to teach me the force language, though. I never get past the basics without help.
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olemars

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Re: Spogue (was RogueSpore)
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2008, 12:58:20 pm »

Combining python and C++ is a good plan.

As for me, I do C++ at work but we're going to start using a scripting language for parts of it soon because C++ is just too cumbersome for much of what we do (3D simulators). I'm quite fond of Fortran as well, since I studied physics at uni, but I think I would get lonely very quickly if I insisted on using that :)


Edit:
For UI stuff there's also Qt, which has good support for both languages and platforms, but might be a bit overkill.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 01:01:28 pm by olemars »
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Gantolandon

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Re: Spogue (was RogueSpore)
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2008, 01:06:48 pm »

My vote goes to C++ (as no one here seems to like Java). I don't know anything about Python except it's a programming language... ;)

As for the game, I would also suggest no stages. We would risk turning the game into a series of minigames, which I think we should avoid.

The main question is: what do you want this game to be? What should the player do? Personally, I think about it as something like Evolution game in "Various Nonsense" forum. You begin with an amorphous mass and try to do something with it to let it gain dominance.

What is it supposed to encompass? A stage before gaining sentience? Or maybe after becoming sentient, too? It would be much more complicated, as the creature's ethics and social structure would be almost partially determined by its biology.

What does the player control? One species? Or perhaps everything that lives on the planet, like in SimEarth?

What does the player do to accomplish his goals? Does he buy traits and try to compete with other species more? Or perhaps he doesn't have control over mutations (it's more complicated but perhaps possible - just take a look at Darwinbots)?
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CptFastbreak

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Re: Spogue (was RogueSpore)
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2008, 01:24:18 pm »

I would be willing to learn c++ if it's that of a big deal. I would need someone to teach me the force language, though. I never get past the basics without help.

Go to the planet of the Amazons you must. Hand you this book they will:
http://www.amazon.com/C-Programming-Language-Special-3rd/dp/0201700735
It's great. Also look here for more books, though I haven't read all books listed there I think its a fairly decent selection:
http://ciaranm.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/the-c-books-list/

If it should be a scripting language, I guess I can't get anyone here excited about Ruby?

On topic, I think uncontrollable mutation could be problematic, if the player can do nothing to improve his chances of advancement. IMHO there should be some balance between random and player controlled evolution.
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olemars

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Re: Spogue (was RogueSpore)
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2008, 01:32:53 pm »

Stackless Python sounds interesting (from wikipedia) but their site appears to be down and I suspect it doesn't have the same amount of supporting modules vanilla Python has so we better stick with the original.

Not sure what's going on with their website, it was up a few days ago when I last dropped by there. As for stackless vs vanilla, it's supposed to be binary compatible so vanilla modules can be used in stackless.

If it should be a scripting language, I guess I can't get anyone here excited about Ruby?

I've heard nice things about it but I haven't had an opportunity to look into it yet. How does it compare to the competition?
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