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Author Topic: Creating a magic system?  (Read 44847 times)

k33n

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #300 on: February 11, 2015, 04:28:35 pm »

I would prefer to have very little or no magic. Magic implementation often is cheesy, lame, and unimaginative. Low magic or nothing.
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Naryar

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #301 on: February 12, 2015, 05:21:28 am »

I really liked the magic system in the Cado's story. Not only it was original, not just the D&D kind of magic (well, it was really D&D magic but developed noticeably more and with more fluff) but it was also badass (using space-time magic with your fists in order to kill opponents).

Neonivek

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #302 on: February 12, 2015, 05:59:59 am »

Not only it was original

>_>... It was meant to be generic, and intentionally so.

You guys are really placated with fluff... Given that Cado's story had all the same magic you guys moaned about.

What with fireballs, touch of death, spellcasting that ran off of mana, religion magic, Magic that had no backfire effects and could be used reliably...

 
Quote
but developed noticeably more

Well if you go into the dungeons and dragons lore as opposed to the game mechanics made to simply things for the player... magic tends to be rather involved... and it will go down to even the EXACT language that magic scrolls are written in, how spells work, their sources, and all that.

Which is more information then you need for playing the game.

---

Or rather

Stop misinterpreting your dissatisfaction on "magic" on the wrong things... Then saying something, that does the exact same things, does it right later on.

By the by "Most settings" do not over-apply magic. Magic being incredibly rare is the status quo. It is in fact quite rare for a setting to do the opposite.

But even going by historical standards magic isn't rare... in fact magic might be well woven into the fabric of society. What you don't want are "Wizards throwing numbers around". A race of people who typically know how to make lucky charms and the game doesn't really indicate one way or another if they work? That would be "everyone is magic" right there, but the context has shifted hasn't it?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 06:12:58 am by Neonivek »
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Bumber

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #303 on: February 12, 2015, 06:40:54 am »

>_>... It was meant to be generic, and intentionally so.

You guys are really placated with fluff... Given that Cado's story had all the same magic you guys moaned about.

What with fireballs, touch of death, spellcasting that ran off of mana, religion magic, Magic that had no backfire effects and could be used reliably...
The touch of death was killing Cado each time he used it. Sholil's fairy magic furthered the progression of her curse when she healed the rhino boy, as well.
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Enchiridion

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #304 on: February 12, 2015, 12:33:42 pm »

I would be curious in how the cosmology of power and magic would work in DF worlds. Like, we know there are deities that could offer power, but what about other sources of power?

So basically Deities of spheres with their powers are the predominant forces in the world, then there are lesser beings such as demons, fiends and perhaps some good counterpart to them. And then on the outskirts of the power spectrum could be magical forgotten beasts.

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vache

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #305 on: February 12, 2015, 02:08:25 pm »

I would be curious in how the cosmology of power and magic would work in DF worlds. Like, we know there are deities that could offer power, but what about other sources of power?

So basically Deities of spheres with their powers are the predominant forces in the world, then there are lesser beings such as demons, fiends and perhaps some good counterpart to them. And then on the outskirts of the power spectrum could be magical forgotten beasts.

That is something I wondered about as well.  Even the deities and demons seem to be linked, seeing as the deities use their powers to allow demons to access the mortal world in vaults (if I remember correctly).  It could be something like each of the spheres have their own plane of power and deities are strong connections between the planes, while magical beasts have some weaker natural connection across planes.  There could be myths related to this connection, like the dragons were the first children of the deity of the volcano sphere, like demigods, who may not understand their divine parentage but still retain some vestiges of their power.  Sentient creatures with weak natural connections will have a high magical aptitude, and there could be a tiny chance for them to have a stronger connection and be very powerful.

As far as other sources of power, I always imagined the world itself being home to some source of power, and this is power is what elves tap into for their woodshaping and all that.  Similarly, the world might have ley lines of sorts where magic power can be concentrated, and those with magical aptitude can access it easier.  The mage's guild might have interest in investigating or setting up shop in these areas. 

Some advanced interactions between items or materials could combine to have magical effects too.  An enchanted silver and obsidian ring could give the wearer increased morale, while a enchanted golden ring with opals could give enhanced ability to persuade others.  This feels a little bit too cliched and gamey though.

There could be magic based off of the spirit world or the spirits/souls of living and deceased creatures.  It could tie in to macabre/fell moods and ghosts and the like.  I would imagine something like this would be a very dark and taboo form of magic, requiring things like killing a sentient creature and hijacking its soul for a short time to explore an area or manifesting that soul as a ghost in order to frighten someone into giving in to your demands or distract guards or something like that, or even the old trope of stealing the life from another creature to extend your own.

There could be things like astronomical events that convey powers for a short time, alignment of the stars and all that.  I don't know if the systems to support something like that are in, but it could just be handwaved away without really needing an actual astronomy model (though that would be neat).  It would be cool if you had to fear something like an ancient and powerful necromancer who spent hundreds of years scouring the world gathering artifacts and studying old tomes.  While amassing this great power, he discovers that every 263 years, the world is overflowing with magic for those who can access it.  He has calculated that the next event will occur in less than five years, and sets out to recruit lesser necromancers under his banner in a bid to conquer the world.  It also just so happens that you have established your fortress about this time...

There's a lot that could be done with the above scenario and the potential for something like that is really exciting.  Suppose that necromancer was traveling incognito and stopped at your tavern on his way to visit another necromancer, and one of your wizards feels his power and warns the fortress.  You could try to confront him right there, but it could go very bad very quickly if you're not prepared.  Conversely, if you don't handle it early, you will find yourself fighting off a neverending army of the dead and desperately trying to form an alliance with the humans and the elves to fight off the thread.
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Graknorke

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #306 on: February 12, 2015, 03:00:30 pm »

>_>... It was meant to be generic, and intentionally so.

You guys are really placated with fluff... Given that Cado's story had all the same magic you guys moaned about.

What with fireballs, touch of death, spellcasting that ran off of mana, religion magic, Magic that had no backfire effects and could be used reliably...
The touch of death was killing Cado each time he used it. Sholil's fairy magic furthered the progression of her curse when she healed the rhino boy, as well.
Yeah, a huge amount of the story was based on the fact that magic did have backfire effects, and the implication from the opening section was that a big portion of magic training was about learning to manage the recoil rather than how 2 fireball.
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Enchiridion

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #307 on: February 12, 2015, 07:14:03 pm »

quote stuffs

So if we were to classify all possible sources of power, we end up with something like

Gods
Hereditary(demigods)
Forgotten beasts
Alchemy
Natural accumulation
Cosmic
The soul of a living being

So here's a few scenarios of how artifacts may come to be:
  • A metal smith is sick and in his last dying breath he forges a sword and imbues it with his soul, thus dying in the process but imbuing the artifact with power corresponding to the personality of the smith.
  • By divine inspiration, a craftsman creates an item with magical properties corresponding to a certain sphere of the inspiring god.
  • A creature becomes possessed and by demonic suggestion and creates an item, imbuing it with magical properties corresponding to the demon, or possibly, with the demon possessing the item.
  • A fallen meteorite consisting of a strange starmetal is smelted into artifacts that poses certain abilities.
  • A forgotten beast is slain with a spear and the spear becomes an artifact and gains abilities. These could be curses too.
  • A fallen soldier comes back as a spirit and possesses a weapon
  • An alchemist discovers a recipe for a certain type of metal, but being a stingy alchemist he doesnt tell anyone else about the recipe and only makes three bars before it goes bad and everything else explodes. The artifacts forged from this metal retain some special ability.
  • In a ritual site a creature is sacrificed on the proper date and an item submerged in its blood. The item becomes magical.
  • A magical creature creates an item that is somehow linked to the creature(think Sauron and his ring)
  • A dwarf becomes attached to a weapon for long and eventually the weapon becomes attached to the dwarf... ooooh! spoookey!
  • An already existing item/artifact is lost in the middle of a very magical biome and eventually becomes somehow connected to the powers of that biome.
  • While mining, a "mystical artifact" is unearthed. Its origins unknown.


Bonus ideas:
A dwarf dies in a suit of armor but the armor continues fighting with the dead dwarf inside.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 07:21:25 pm by Enchiridion »
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Neonivek

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #308 on: February 12, 2015, 07:18:02 pm »

>_>... It was meant to be generic, and intentionally so.

You guys are really placated with fluff... Given that Cado's story had all the same magic you guys moaned about.

What with fireballs, touch of death, spellcasting that ran off of mana, religion magic, Magic that had no backfire effects and could be used reliably...
The touch of death was killing Cado each time he used it. Sholil's fairy magic furthered the progression of her curse when she healed the rhino boy, as well.

Sholil's curse was an illusion and never existed. It was a figment of her imagination and one of the major turning points was her being able to look through it.

As well the Touch of Death wasn't a "Backfire" it was a direct cost with a well known cause and effect. It didn't "Backfire" no more then an engine requiring Gas is a "Backfire". If the Car's engine exploded, that is a backfire.

And even if I did accept that Sholil's magic was a curse, and not an illusion like the story depicts, it is still a direct cost. Her magic requires her to give up a certain part of her "humanity" to function.

Add in that the story constantly allows magic to be the... well... magic solution to everyone's problems... and Boom!

Cado's story has everything people hate about magic but has enough fluff that it placates them... Even right down to "Magic healing", "Mana Pools", and "Fireballs"

---

My suggestion for magic: Don't balance it with respect to other play styles.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 07:22:53 pm by Neonivek »
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JesterHell696

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #309 on: February 13, 2015, 02:36:03 am »

quote stuffs

So if we were to classify all possible sources of power, we end up with something like

Gods
Hereditary(demigods)
Forgotten beasts
Alchemy
Natural accumulation
Cosmic
The soul of a living being


I disagree with what you present here specifically with the statement that the gods and forgotten beasts are the source of magic.

When I think about gods in df I don't think the power comes from the god his/her self but rather from the spheres the the god is aligned with, this is because you can have multiple god from different civs with the same sphere, there's also the necromancers example in that I don't think that they channel their given gods power when doing their thing because not all necromancer apprentices worship the same god as their master

as for forgotten beasts I think of them more as magical accidents or mistakes rather then sources of power themselves, I mean their all "one of a kind" freaks that could represent what happens when a random animal get exposed to pure or raw magic or the results of crossbreeding experiments of some crazy wizard lords.

I have no problem with alchemy in and of its self, in fact I always thought of alchemy as a mundane or everyman type of magic.

I don't quite know what you mean by natural accumulation.

I personally consider Cosmic magic comes from the Cosmic, Metaphysical, Divine or whatever you want to call them spheres and that the gods just give the knowledge or "Secrets" of how to tap into this power source, it is then channeled though the wizard using their sheer willpower and this wears them out physically which is why I think a fatigue cost rather then a new "mana" stat is the way to go, although I think you might mean astrology and Lovecraft style "the stars are right" type of thing?

and as for the soul of a living being I cant help but wonder how you go about quantifying the value or power level of a given soul?

My suggestion for magic: Don't balance it with respect to other play styles.

This, This A hundred times over, I've always found it gamey when a setting nerfs magic so as to not make other skills obsolete, I think that the wizard who has the ability throw lightning or use touch of death spells is a lot more dangerous then the grand master warrior and seeing as how DF is a single player game their is no need to balance all the play styles but rather give the player the option to generate a world where their preferred play style is valid, this is why I think a world gen setting for magic which is like the current settings for beasts or minerals is preferable.
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"The long-term goal is to create a fantasy world simulator in which it is possible to take part in a rich history, occupying a variety of roles through the course of several games." Bay 12 DF development page

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Enchiridion

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #310 on: February 13, 2015, 03:36:03 am »

Im sure even gots can have whimsies. some may let you tap into a source, others might offer a covenant with them and thereby act as your source of power.

The soul thing is obviously just cus "lol we need sacrifices" and by cosmic I do mean astrology lovecraftian and the likes.
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Enchiridion

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #311 on: February 13, 2015, 01:25:13 pm »

All this talk about gods makes me want to suggest an opposite equivalent for the HFS. Build a structure high enough and you come across a layer of clouds to mine through before a host of righteous wingéd anti-clowns descends to smite your ass for your chagrin. The heavens are not for the likes of you, mortal!

Hey, that sounds like a story I've heard before...
hehe. I think an opposite HFS could be a thing but Id rather not have it be a place in the sky. I like the whole underground HFS thing because its thematically a part of the world. You have to not dig too deep, so to speak. The idea that the world has a layer of darkness underneath it is quite perplexing in and of itself. Adding another one seems a tad bit redundant.
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clockwork

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #312 on: February 14, 2015, 06:16:18 pm »

It is acceptable in my eyes if only you must hunt the squid to get the ink, that goes on the pen (made from some trapped bird) to write on the scroll of papyrus (that you made from picking and processing a plant) in order to write out the spell from which you learned by reading some old grimior you found in a dungeon (which, by the way, could've been misread and now you just made a scroll of self immolation instead of fireball)
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Graknorke

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #313 on: February 18, 2015, 08:40:42 am »

Why could you only write with squid ink with pens made of feathers?
There are many water-soluble dyes going, and metal pens are nothing new.
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Enchiridion

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #314 on: February 20, 2015, 04:56:05 pm »

Somehow, supposing this system existed in real life, a skull engraved with the blood of the writer on his dying breath somehow contains waaaay more effort and sacrifice than getting some really rare ingredients.
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