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Author Topic: Creating a magic system?  (Read 44910 times)

Enchiridion

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #285 on: February 08, 2015, 05:24:55 am »

I like the idea of gifted bloodlines of dwarfs/humans/elves that all have an inclination to become familiar with magic. Suppose last names stuck with families, and the copperanvils family was known to be magically gifted, it would make the players care about children for once.

The current way that necromancers work is fairly close to a potentially good magic system. It basically works in such a way that you have abilities available to you and you can use them whenever they are up. For a rare-magic setting that fits quite well because you have someone with powerful magic that is capable of using it but its still rare.

I'm opposed to generic gamey spells like "FIREBALL" and "ARC LIGHTNING" because they don't seem magical at all, they just sound like unexplained grenades and nanobots. Truly magical spells to me are something like "transform into creature", "create lightning storm" and "sense life". Things that are not just built with one purpose and that purpose being "beat the shit out of the enemy." Yes it would be boring if all the dwarfs in my fort had laser guns and not something I would call high magic. But if some dwarves could see through stone, while others can speak to statues, while a few with some mental quirks would be able to cast weapons that they could talk to later on. If there was a dwarf that turned into a tile of water upon death or an elf that, after death, sprouted into a massive world tree. That's high magic. Not fireballs. Magic is for the intelligent, wise and the mystical, not those who think that steel and bolts are too mainstream.
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Neonivek

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #286 on: February 08, 2015, 06:37:03 am »

Quote
I'm opposed to generic gamey spells like "FIREBALL" and "ARC LIGHTNING" because they don't seem magical at all, they just sound like unexplained grenades and nanobots

I think this is more because of their proliferation in modern times then from any sort of mythological aspect.

Plagues, Super Strength, Lightning strikes all have historical precedent for magic. As is causing people spontaneous pains and debilitations. Striking someone's footprint or shadow killing them is also something historical.

Calling on elemental and nature spirits is also rather grounded. Which could spring up as commanding elements and the typical "Fireball"

To me where "Fireballs" and "arc lightning" sort of lose their magicality is the fact that Fireballs and Lightning when commanded via magic... Don't act like those elements. Admit it, when you thought of them you were thinking of them doing HP damage... rather then arcing through people's bodies doing severe internal damage with their equipment being mildly melted or burnt. You were thinking of Fireballs doing vague "heat damage" instead of lighting an area on fire with a burst of heat and pressure.

Magic is VERY magical when it actually is allowed to act like the force it is enacting rather then having a very statistical and numeric effect.

I think one thing that Dwarf Fortress stumbled on that I think it should continue in some form is well...

Necromancy is just magic that works the way it does without any real limitations or requirements. It is a very magical system as it represents true knowledge of the world coming to fruition with magic that is basically as easy to use as waving your hand. Like "True names" or "True Runes"... As long as you knew it, you could use it.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 06:41:46 am by Neonivek »
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JesterHell696

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #287 on: February 08, 2015, 07:56:24 am »

Magic is for the intelligent, wise and the mystical, not those who think that steel and bolts are too mainstream.

The problem I have with non-industrial or rare and unknown magic is that if magic follows any type of internally consistent rules or laws then it will end up being industrialized, because if it follows some type of rule system at all then people will learn it and then exploit it.

I mean any game or book setting that has magic invents rules and laws by which that magic works.

I think there's a fine line between industrialized magic and useless magic and that's why most setting use "gamey" rules that lower the power of magic or it usefulness so that it doesn't end up the solution to all problems, if I remember correctly in lord of the rings Gandalf and the other Maiar had rules that stop them from from just magicking away problems and in D&D the rules of magic were made by the goddess Mystra.

I mean even in settings like warhammer fantasy or dragon age were all magic is inherently chaotic or dangerous and can mutate, kill or even see you possessed by a demon it gets industrialized because if its in anyway reliable or consistent people will try and use it to mass produce magic items and those who posses these skill will ether be in service to the kingdom or hire out their services to the highest bidder, but if its unreliable or inconsistent they get the Witch Hunter's, Inquisition or Templar's out to hunt down and kill all magic users because their continued existence is not worth the constant risk they pose.

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"The long-term goal is to create a fantasy world simulator in which it is possible to take part in a rich history, occupying a variety of roles through the course of several games." Bay 12 DF development page

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Neonivek

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #288 on: February 08, 2015, 07:59:33 am »

Well in the Hobbit Gandalf really could just solve all their problems himself.

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were all magic is inherently chaotic or dangerous

Actually in both those settings there is safe magic.

It is just that in Warhammer the chaotic and dangerous magic is many times more reliable and powerful then the safe kind. While in Dragon Age whether or not magic is dangerous depends on whether or not they remember... that and yeah Dragon Age has "safe magic".
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 08:03:49 am by Neonivek »
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JesterHell696

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #289 on: February 08, 2015, 10:24:38 am »


Actually in both those settings there is safe magic.

It is just that in Warhammer the chaotic and dangerous magic is many times more reliable and powerful then the safe kind. While in Dragon Age whether or not magic is dangerous depends on whether or not they remember... that and yeah Dragon Age has "safe magic".

If you think of safe as relative to the setting you can call it safe, but in dragon age there is a constant if low risk of demon possession no matter how old or experienced the mage and I'm pretty sure warhammer fantasy has a low chance of spell miscast that can cause horrible thing to happen, so not "safe" when compared to The Elder Scroll or Dungeons & Dragons which don't have those inherent risks.
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"The long-term goal is to create a fantasy world simulator in which it is possible to take part in a rich history, occupying a variety of roles through the course of several games." Bay 12 DF development page

"My stance is that Dwarf Fortress is first and foremost a simulation and that balance is a secondary objective that is always secondary to it being a simulation while at the same time cannot be ignored completely." -Neonivek

Neonivek

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #290 on: February 08, 2015, 04:43:31 pm »

You are talking about their one specific kind of magic rather then their many other forms of magic.

Such as rune magic... which as we seen can even be used to attack on the spot without any risk of endangerment.
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Enchiridion

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #291 on: February 08, 2015, 08:33:27 pm »

Well I myself am gona soon do another D&D session with some friends and in my setting all the god-anchored planes are thralls to the dreams of sleeping gods. So a cleric is literally someone who can hear the dreams, and an epic cleric is one who can, so to speak, whisper into the ear of the sleeping gods. Similarly with magic, where one must himself become the catalyst of his souls dreams. The thing is, any rules of magic must be REALLY vague or non-specific in order to not become industrialized.

Tho make it seem magical there has to be some dark/big/weird secret behind it all. Like, the origin of the power must not be the caster. The caster must be the link. The random element could be the origin of the power. So to prevent industrialization, the origin of one wizards power could be a friendly fairy who he helped a while ago. Idk, it cant be something you just learn. That's too... perfect. If you could just learn it, then why on earth wouldn't everyone just go to hogwarts for ever and ever?
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JesterHell696

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #292 on: February 08, 2015, 09:41:27 pm »

You are talking about their one specific kind of magic rather then their many other forms of magic.

Such as rune magic... which as we seen can even be used to attack on the spot without any risk of endangerment.

It's been a while since I've played but I'm pretty that dwarves are the only race to exclusively use rune magic while the other races do use it as well just to a lesser extent because it is a weaker if safer type of magic, as for attacking on the spot or battle "spells" that requires one of the Anvils of Doom all of which are rare artifacts that can be traced back to the first dwarven empire, without an anvil dwarf runesmiths just provide dispel dice to counter the other races wizards and a bonus to both armor save and increase weapon penetration to the squad or unit their in.

I'm also feel pretty sure that all the other types of magic, even high magic has a chance of being miscast and that is the "purest" form of magic in the warhammer world, its just that the save rolls against miscast are better for high magic users buts there is still a tiny chance bad stuff happens, so there is some inherent risk to magic use in the warhammer world.

That's too... perfect. If you could just learn it, then why on earth wouldn't everyone just go to hogwarts for ever and ever?

That's why I said they have "gamey" rules like how in harry potter your ether born with the ability to do magic or not and its somewhat random as Hermione is a witch but her parents are muggles.

You gave an example of a fairy giving someone magic but that would just encourage a industry like the bear bile trade, if you don't know what that is its were people cage bears and extract bile from their gallbladder for "medicinal" prepossess, but back to the fairy... if people know you can get magic from certain animals or creatures whats to stop them from capturing them to forcible extract that magic if its at all possible even if it kills the creature in the process? the answer, that's impossible because (insert reason here), but its really because it would unbalance the setting and magic would be used for everything.

I just think that if magic is a inherent part of the world like the law of gravity then it can be studied and a workaround figured out, just look at the A380 Airbus weighing 277,000kg or 610,700lb but it can still fly because we figured out a workaround to the law of gravity, so if magic exists in any reliable way then people will study it and then it will become a science and related laws will be learned until someone can industrialize it.
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"The long-term goal is to create a fantasy world simulator in which it is possible to take part in a rich history, occupying a variety of roles through the course of several games." Bay 12 DF development page

"My stance is that Dwarf Fortress is first and foremost a simulation and that balance is a secondary objective that is always secondary to it being a simulation while at the same time cannot be ignored completely." -Neonivek

Enchiridion

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #293 on: February 09, 2015, 04:40:47 am »

Not really a workaround. Gravity still applies. We just realized that aerodynamics is a great way of throwing stuff all over the globe rly far.
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JesterHell696

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #294 on: February 09, 2015, 07:54:39 am »

Not really a workaround. Gravity still applies. We just realized that aerodynamics is a great way of throwing stuff all over the globe rly far.

I call it a workaround in that we don't break the law instead we use aerodynamics to circumnavigate or "workaround" it, I do think its just a matter of opinion to call it that though. :)
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"The long-term goal is to create a fantasy world simulator in which it is possible to take part in a rich history, occupying a variety of roles through the course of several games." Bay 12 DF development page

"My stance is that Dwarf Fortress is first and foremost a simulation and that balance is a secondary objective that is always secondary to it being a simulation while at the same time cannot be ignored completely." -Neonivek

vache

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #295 on: February 09, 2015, 01:29:47 pm »

I've read a little bit on other magic system suggestions (not everything or I'd never get anything else done), and here are some of my thoughts.

Deities and their spheres will be the main sources of magic, with some exceptions.  Each race will have its own magical aptitude and magical curiosity, specified in raws.  Magical aptitude refers to how capable a creature is at learning or practicing magics, while curiosity refers to their general inclination to do so.  For example, elves might have very high magical aptitude and moderate magical curiosity, dwarves might have low magical aptitude and below average curiosity, while humans have average magical aptitude, but a very high curiosity, due to their ambitious nature.  Generally, this will mean humans are more likely to try to "collect" magical powers, and are more likely to explore types of magic the other races might avoid.  At world gen a couple settings will control how large a part magic plays, one setting will govern the overall amount of magic present in the world, while another acts as a scaling factor for each race's aptitude.  A world with high magic present and a high scaling factor = most creatures have magical powers, a world with very low magic present and a high scaling factor = very few creatures with very powerful magic powers, a world with high magic and low scaling factor = many magic type animals (dragons, unicorns, etc) but very few creatures with magical powers, a world with no magic present will be completely mundane.  Magic will have several manifestations in the world:

1. Artifacts which derive their power based on the type of item, the inspiration for the item, and the materials used.  Inspiration may come from a deity, in which case the spheres the deity is associated with will play a major part in determining the power.  Not all artifacts will be magical, some may just be really fancy items, or created to signify some certain event.  The artifacts that are not deity-inspired are more likely to be mundane.
2. Alchemy which may be used to craft potions or transmute metals.  Potion-making is fairly straightforward.  Combining certain herbs together in a glass vial may make a potion that can be carried by a dwarf and used in combat situations (or in every day life depending on the potion).  Exotic ingredients can make powerful potions and possibly even forgotten beast extract based poisons.  Transmutation is a bit difficult to nail down without making it mechanical and overpowered.  Ideally, it would be used to generate some metals with exotic properties, sort of like the material-derived powers from artifacts above, or even just very good quality metals somewhere between steel and adamantine.  The trouble lies in making it a worthwhile process, while at the same time preventing it from being an assembly line of exotic metals.  Basic constraints might be time/material based.  Something more advanced will be needed as well, otherwise you might end up with forts full of dwarves who all stop what they're doing when the calendar hits hematite, and all turn into alchemists to make runesteel, then go back to whatever they were doing before.
3. Good old fashioned spells.  Spells mostly draw their power from the spheres (not every sphere though, not sure what sort of "salt" spell there would be), so there will be a bit of overlap, and a lot of variety.  Not sure how an actual spellcasting system would work though.  Dwarves should be autonomous enough that they are able to select and cast spells with minimal player intervention without crushing the rest of the militia under a fiery meteor, though I would leave some wiggle room in; a poorly trained and undisciplined mage may very well call a meteor strike when it is unwise to do so.  Tons and tons of ways spellcasting could go, and it will be difficult to balance making spellcasting feel powerful in the hands of an adventurer, while still manageable in fortress mode.  Spells could be learned through tomes/slabs, a master/apprentice relationship, research, or devotion to a deity.
4. Natural world magic.  Mostly the domain of Elves, this includes things like treeshaping, passing through forests or other areas peacefully, or magical creatures like dragons, ents, or even golems.

Worldgen should include some "prehistory" generation, which doesn't have to be much more than creating a set of myths associated with deities, the world itself, civilizations, and creatures.  These would be stories like Greek myths, tales of Atlantis and El Dorado, Egyptian mummies, etc.  Most of them would be inspiration for poems and tavern songs and the like.   Dwarven scholars would attempt to gather and scrutinize these myths and legends for indications of their existence and where they might be.  When they believe they have identified a location of significance, they can send your expedition out to explore it in fortress mode, or hire your adventurer to escort them in adventure mode.

An example might be a myth that a certain deity sculpted the first dwarves out of stone from the mightiest mountain, and the other deities became jealous; one carved elves from the trees, another crafted goblins from the filthiest swamps, kobolds from the dirt of cave floors, and the most envious deity made humans from a little bit of everything.  This type of creation myth probably won't have an actual impact in the game, except for possibly dwarves wanting to find the mightiest mountain and establish it as a place of pilgrimage, or to search for ruins or establish a fortress underneath.

Another example of a myth might be that the dwarves of a fortress were unfaithful to the deity of volcanoes and fire, so he sent a mighty dragon to attack.  After suffering heavy casualties at the fortress, a hero slays the dragon and has the dragon scales made into a glorious fire-proof armor to commemorate the event.  The deity was furious that they would be brazen enough to craft such an armor and cursed the fortress to ruins and all its inhabitants that they would all perish by fire.  Several legends might come out of this, the story of the dwarves spurning the deity, the dragon sent by the gods to punish the nonbelievers, the hero's battle against the dragon and his triumph over the beast, the hero's armor, and the cursed fortress.

Through inscribing, collecting, cataloging, and studying of myths, rumors, liaison reports, and their own research, dwarves can expand their knowledge of the world, and possibly discover new spells or old relics.  Implementation of this part would be up in the air, but it will probably require a new room (or zone) for the library (which could allow the player to peruse legends while in fort mode), and new professions to encompass the acts of research and the different magic abilities.  New items like papyrus and ink would have to be produced to support inscription, and new reactions would have to be added to engrave slabs with more information.  It could be generic enough so that in the future, you could establish a fortress-wide library that some dwarves would go to on break that could contain the legends, a mage's guild library where you can view magical discoveries and ingredients for spells/alchemy and whatnot, a miner's guild library where you can find geology information (where to find which rocks, which rocks are magma-proof, things like that), nobles could request their own private library dedicated to their greatness, and so on.  Guilds would send masters to establish chapters in fortresses after they hit certain milestones (barony, county, duchy), limiting access to magic unless you choose to embark with a mage.  If your fortress becomes known for its magical studies (or becomes the mountainhome), the archmage could decide to relocate the seat of the mage's guild to your fortress.

There would probably be a good bit of overlap between priests and other temple workers and the magic system professions.  The priests would study all the data related to their deity and may require certain items to sacrifice, and their devoutness may be rewarded with magical instruction. 

Scenario example:  The mage's guild believes they have pinpointed the locations of a set of ancient ruins that may contain a certain magical artifact.  You are to lead an expedition accompanied by a veteran mage and his apprentice.  Upon arrival, you will establish quarters for the mage as well as a workspace where he may conduct his studies.  Then you are to search for the artifact.  We estimate it was lost over a thousand years ago when the nearby volcano erupted.  We don't know what powers it may possess, so approach with caution.

Upon discovery of the artifact, an iron sword decorated with obsidian, a stream of undead guardians pour forth.  After your militia dispatches them, you recover the artifact and the mage takes it for study, along with the slabs left behind in the ruins.  The mage analyzes the artifact, and it is determined that it possesses the power to revive slain foes in service of the slayer.  At the same time, the apprentice studies the slabs and finds that the previous owner was a worshipper of a certain deity, whose domain are the spheres of death and thralldom.  It seems the artifact's power may only be realized in the hands of a faithful worshipper of this deity  If you have a dwarf able to wield the artifact, it may prove to be useful, but the roaming undead following the owner around will surely upset other citizens in the fort.  The slabs also may contain information of either magical, cultural, or historical significance, and may be able to be put to use either as recipes for new spells/potions/whatever or sold to the mountainhomes.

Interaction is different depending on fortress mode vs adventure mode.  Magic will probably play more of a role in adventure mode where the player is encouraged to seek it out.  An adventurer may be able to learn the secrets of many spheres, while in dwarf mode this may be quite rare.  There could be things like a shack in the middle of a forest where an old mage has retired, and if you can track him down, he may teach you some powerful spells, or a witch's hut in a swamp full of rare ingredients, and things like this just won't be available in fortress mode.  Interaction with deities would definitely be fleshed out more.  After some time of trying to appease the deity and make sacrifices to it, then it might appear to you in a dream and try to send you on a quest, after which it will reward you.  However, becoming a worshipper of one deity of a certain set of spheres would preclude you from worshipping a deity of opposing spheres.  If you try to, the deity may curse you. 
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 06:54:01 pm by vache »
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mineforce

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #296 on: February 09, 2015, 08:20:03 pm »

This is something I just posted in the thread on religion, but it's probably more pertinent here:

Overall, I think that the low-magic world is a bit refreshing.  I'd love to see it kept as more of a Clark Ashton Smith / Robert E. Howard flavor, where magic is the purview of a few bizarre or twisted mortal practitioners and many fantastic demons/gods/monsters/spirits.

I'm kinda meh about every dwarf (or even elf or human) and his uncle tossing fireballs or holy swords around.  When you see magic in the game, it should be MAGIC--strange, awesome, unexpected, powerful verging on cataclysmic . . .


I mean, this is just IMHO, of course, and I haven't read the devnotes or stories as closely as I might.  Maybe Toady intends to saturate the world with easily-accessible magic for the masses?  Dunno.
 


This, the world should have magic, but not a lot of magic where everyone can use some kind healing spell on themselves. I also like the way how gods gift magical abilities and how the knowledge of the secrets are passed down through a long line of chosen apprentices.

Whenever magical weapons are implemented, it'll be great if the gods was to create such items instead of entities themselves.


But yeah I definitely agree. Magic should be strange, powerful and mostly unknown, and should be discovered, used, and lost in time. I like the way how magic works in this game, and it feels kinda different from other fantasy games.
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Graknorke

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #297 on: February 09, 2015, 08:26:12 pm »

I dunno, I'd like kind of the opposite. Magic is pretty much everywhere, except in most places it's so tiny and mundane as to be negligible. It's only when someone really learns how to manipulate it that it becomes useful, and significantly more study required to get to the point where they're slinging around superheated plasma and the like.
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Enchiridion

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #298 on: February 10, 2015, 07:18:26 pm »

I think those are very solid ideas. I too like the noble idea. I think nobles, as a non-directly controllable class would be a good fit for wizards. Though I still think there is place for some really rare intrinsic snot-flicking magic.
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vache

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #299 on: February 11, 2015, 11:41:38 am »

Wizards as nobles only doesn't make too much sense to me, more like having a noble position for "mage's guild representative" or something similar.  Maybe if mages were assigned like militia captains with their apprentices in their squad for training.  There could be noble positions for specific magic related positions that you want to try to limit, like alchemist, high priest, that sort of thing.
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