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Author Topic: Creating a magic system?  (Read 44814 times)

Granite26

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #180 on: December 12, 2008, 09:05:06 pm »

I suppose the model for that would be a 'generate aether' task.

Mana generator dwarf:
   Generate (Aether) Mana (from Environment) -> Embue Aether (into flask)

Actual Mage:
    Generate (Spell) Mana (from Aether) -> Get effect

OR

Artificer Mage
    1 fuel + 1 steel + 1 Aether = 1 AetherSteel Sword


Also, I wanted to state one more time.  Just because there's a generate mana task doesn't mean the fort or the dwarf has to have a mana stat or a mana bar or an accessible amount of mana.  Mana could be used purely to determine the gear ratio between how it is generated (hunger, pain, fatigue, environment, reagents) and how it is used (scrying, fireballs, voodoo)

« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 09:07:08 pm by Granite26 »
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Foa

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #181 on: December 12, 2008, 09:28:34 pm »

So what, you obtain aether naturally, or directly from a set-up aether net complex, then something it into mana?
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Grek

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #182 on: December 12, 2008, 09:42:09 pm »

Change moods so that none of them give skills. Instead the artifact has some limited magical effects, the possibilities of which include, but are not limited to, making the holder better at a given skill, gives a bonus to a given attribute, alters personality, alters likes and dislikes, make people go berserk/melencholy/stark raving mad, etc. There sould be a tendency for the effects to fit themeatically with eachother, but a chance for wildly differing powers. Sort of like spheres for Gods.

Examples:
All who wielded the dreaded axe Ustoszakgol went on to become mighty warriors who carved their way through battlefields, raining blood, gore and death upon their foes. Unfortunately, all of them were soon filled with a constant state of internal fury by the axe before falling into black rages and finally going beskerk and attempting to kill all who came near them. Many legends speak of it's bearers eating the flesh of victims and drinking the blood of those killed by Ustoszakgol. The last known wielder was Urist the Bloody, the blackhearted general who slew an entire goblin tribe the night before the intended battle and instead hosted a banquet of goblin flesh for his troops. When they refused to eat, he became furious and begain attacking his own men, before he was slain by a crossbow bolt to the chest.


Tatloshngitkar, the legendary carp bone earring, was famous for it's power to grant unbeliveable luck in fishing to it's owner. Originating from a small fishing village on the edge of the Green Ocean, it's creator supposedly could fish a ship's entire catch from an empty rain barrel. It was later stolen by the pirate Lukut, who was swallowed whole, along with Tatloshngitkar by a Kracken very soon after leaving port.
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Mikademus

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #183 on: December 13, 2008, 06:47:02 am »

When reading the latest replies free association from the term "the heart of the mountain" gave me an idea:

What if (dwarven) magic was associated with a "heart of the mountain". Where would that be found? In the deepest part of the mountain of course. Where is that? In the pits of course. With the Hidden Fun Stuff. Why did Moria fail? They found the pits and Mrs. Balrog who hadn't had her painkillers and was in the special time of the month. What if the Moria dwarves had conquered their pits? They'd have found the Heart of the Mountain and gained magic.

Of course, other people want access to that too. Like dragons, titans and armies of goblins.
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Tormy

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #184 on: December 13, 2008, 07:51:42 am »

I was originally thinking of mana as something that the fortress collectively has, but this still seems too abstract to me--what if it was something with a physical representation, perhaps with a very low vapor pressure, so it had to be stored in flasks? And, furthermore, what if the vapor *was* the useful part, like gasoline?

What? Mana stored in flasks? No, I don't like this idea. Mana shouldn't have a "physical representation". Mana is a "part" of the spellcaster entity, or at least it should be.

When reading the latest replies free association from the term "the heart of the mountain" gave me an idea:

What if (dwarven) magic was associated with a "heart of the mountain". Where would that be found? In the deepest part of the mountain of course. Where is that? In the pits of course. With the Hidden Fun Stuff. Why did Moria fail? They found the pits and Mrs. Balrog who hadn't had her painkillers and was in the special time of the month. What if the Moria dwarves had conquered their pits? They'd have found the Heart of the Mountain and gained magic.

Of course, other people want access to that too. Like dragons, titans and armies of goblins.

This sounds like Silverionmox's suggestion sort of: what http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=24622.msg360437#msg360437
I like Silverionmox's idea to be honest, if it would work like what I've mentioned in point b. in that post. However I don't really like your suggestion Mikademus. Why? ->
Dwarves would be extremely limited in magic that way. Without discovering & conquering the depths, they wouldn't have access to the magical arts at all, if I understand your idea correctly.

I think that the golden middle road is: Specific entities should have access to magic from the start, however at specific places their magical power would be much greater. [IE. Fire mages should be much more active near magma pits, volcanoes, magma rivers for example..]
Let's modify your suggestion, Mikademus: Dwarven spellcasters will be available from start, but they will be much more powerful once they have access to the secrets of the depth.  :)
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Mikademus

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #185 on: December 13, 2008, 08:23:34 am »

Let's modify your suggestion, Mikademus: Dwarven spellcasters will be available from start, but they will be much more powerful once they have access to the secrets of the depth.  :)

Haha, while reading your reply I said with an annoyed voice in my mind, "but then simply let the heart of the mountain allow for greater magic", and then you suggested exactly that :D I agree, that is perhaps a perfect solution. It allows the magic to grow with the fortress (i.e. you can't obtain it until your fortress is already quite powerful), ties in with and includes the existing game play elements, and is just the right kind of DF challenge: you may gain great rewards, but at great risk (basically, fail and you're nuked).

This tied in with the hunger notion would mean magic is desirable, but hard to obtain and comes with great risk and disadvantages. And when you obtain great magic your users of magic will also become a huge resource drain. Balance, symmetry, I like it!
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Quote from: Silverionmox
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If I wanted to recreate the world of one of my favorite stories, I should be able to specify that there is a civilization called Groan, ruled by Earls from a castle called Gormanghast.
You won't have trouble supplying the Countess with cats, or producing the annual idols to be offerred to the castle. Every fortress is a pale reflection of Ghormenghast..

TrombonistAndrew

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #186 on: December 13, 2008, 09:12:46 am »

There could be a map of ambient magical potential for each kind/sphere/source of magic. For example, fire magic is easier/stronger near fire, so terrain features related to fire give a bonus to water magic nearby (obvious ones are volcanoes, geisers, wood, but also materials, shapes or symbols associated with fire in that world (eg. sulphur, obsidian; triangles; imps).

I don't think it's necessary to add an artificial terrain-based "boost" like this. Fire wizards (for example) should be drawing energy out of fire imps anyway, which are only found in certain areas, and adding another fire boost on top of that is redundant. The parts of the environment already present already can be unique enough to make certain areas interesting for certain spellcasters. I'd think that maybe you could add a way to specifically get a small amount of a kind of "mana" from specific kinds of stone, too, but I still don't think that translates into needing a generalized ambient field.
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Silverionmox

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #187 on: December 13, 2008, 11:47:32 am »

There could be a map of ambient magical potential for each kind/sphere/source of magic. For example, fire magic is easier/stronger near fire, so terrain features related to fire give a bonus to water magic nearby (obvious ones are volcanoes, geisers, wood, but also materials, shapes or symbols associated with fire in that world (eg. sulphur, obsidian; triangles; imps).

I don't think it's necessary to add an artificial terrain-based "boost" like this. Fire wizards (for example) should be drawing energy out of fire imps anyway, which are only found in certain areas, and adding another fire boost on top of that is redundant. The parts of the environment already present already can be unique enough to make certain areas interesting for certain spellcasters. I'd think that maybe you could add a way to specifically get a small amount of a kind of "mana" from specific kinds of stone, too, but I still don't think that translates into needing a generalized ambient field.
The relative contribution of all this should of course be moddable, so the total amount of magic power available remains open for debate. For example the fire imp could give fire energy by hanging around and/or by being sacrificed, worshipped, beaten, enslaved, fed, etc. Or it could even live off fire energy, so they're more parasites than anything else.

The main benefits of keeping track of ambient mystical energy of places, I think, are:
- Spellcasters squabble for certain specific places, which are otherwise unremarkable, adding a new strategic dimension to the map. This would cause settlements to arise in very odd locations, befitting a fantasy game.

- Magic users may be powerful on their home turf, but are relatively weak when in another environment. This assures a diversity of settlements and magical practices. This in turn makes it possible to randomize more freely, because it hinders the use of magic as a direct weapon of conquest. Therefore some branches of magic can have bizarre, specialized uses without ensuring their quick extinction.

- Flavour and atmosphere: symbolism is functional. Rather than just having the AI do things in a specific way because of some irrational cultural imperative, give those salmon statues and midnight blue moose totems a function.

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Tormy

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #188 on: December 13, 2008, 12:20:31 pm »

Let's modify your suggestion, Mikademus: Dwarven spellcasters will be available from start, but they will be much more powerful once they have access to the secrets of the depth.  :)

Haha, while reading your reply I said with an annoyed voice in my mind, "but then simply let the heart of the mountain allow for greater magic", and then you suggested exactly that :D I agree, that is perhaps a perfect solution. It allows the magic to grow with the fortress (i.e. you can't obtain it until your fortress is already quite powerful), ties in with and includes the existing game play elements, and is just the right kind of DF challenge: you may gain great rewards, but at great risk (basically, fail and you're nuked).

This tied in with the hunger notion would mean magic is desirable, but hard to obtain and comes with great risk and disadvantages. And when you obtain great magic your users of magic will also become a huge resource drain. Balance, symmetry, I like it!

Yep, exactly! Also this would be interesting from a "global" perspective also. Just read Silverionmox's post. He explained it perfectly. [The post before this reply of mine.]
« Last Edit: December 13, 2008, 12:22:25 pm by Tormy »
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Mikademus

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #189 on: December 13, 2008, 02:06:32 pm »

I think this discussion is really going in the right direction atm. Rather than focus on exactly how a spell is cast or what magic schools exist (which is important, just not as immediately relevant) it focuses on larger gameplay aspects: tying in with existing mechanics, game play considerations, and fortress/selection/strategic consequences.

I'd like to amend Silverionmox' notion of places with mystical energy by suggesting that races should have different affinities: it is natural for dwarves to seek a Heart of the Mountain, and it is for elves to seek a Heart of the Forest. Humans might not be affine with any thing like this, perhaps being more generic and stronger with magic in general (at the onset) but also not able to attain the Greater Powers of possessing a Heart of their racial affinity. This makes the races naturally more qualitatively distinct and would entail each being played differently from each other == Big Win.
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If I wanted to recreate the world of one of my favorite stories, I should be able to specify that there is a civilization called Groan, ruled by Earls from a castle called Gormanghast.
You won't have trouble supplying the Countess with cats, or producing the annual idols to be offerred to the castle. Every fortress is a pale reflection of Ghormenghast..

Little

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #190 on: December 13, 2008, 09:40:39 pm »

Maybe the elves get their own indivdual heart of The Forest.

They go on a kinda of quest deep into the forest, while the Ancient, Sentient Tree in the middle throws challanges at the group. If/When the elves succeed, they get a little bit of Mana which expands as their experience with it grows.

Gives a reason for the term 'heart-friend'.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #191 on: December 13, 2008, 09:58:23 pm »

When reading the latest replies free association from the term "the heart of the mountain" gave me an idea:

What if (dwarven) magic was associated with a "heart of the mountain". Where would that be found? In the deepest part of the mountain of course. Where is that? In the pits of course. With the Hidden Fun Stuff. Why did Moria fail? They found the pits and Mrs. Balrog who hadn't had her painkillers and was in the special time of the month. What if the Moria dwarves had conquered their pits? They'd have found the Heart of the Mountain and gained magic.

Of course, other people want access to that too. Like dragons, titans and armies of goblins.

I like this idea, but in the proper DF spirit, I think it could be made hideously dangerous.

Suppose that magic itself-atleast epic level magic- was like radiation-as has previously been suggested-but radioactive in the sense (more or less) that plutonium is radioactive.

The raw, wild essence of Magic itself would be what the adamantium sphere was created to contain, and Demons just the aftereffect--Demons would essentially be the result of creatures trapped inside, absorbing that radiation over centuries, which would keep them alive, and make them more powerful, more twisted, more evil/insane.

Mining into the adamantium would release the magic, which would then flow from that point, through stone, water, lava, creatures, whatever's in the way, infusing everything it touches with magical potential.

Each raw element would have a "transforms into ___ when touched by magic, after such and such a time" tag in the Raws, or several random options, and these could either be good (gold ore = magical ore), or bad (goblin = cyclops), with an emphasis on bad.

This doesn't mean that every single rock, tree, and goat in the game suddenly turns into something other, it just means that there would be a kind of "leyline" across the map, where a lot of weird stuff would suddenly be going on.

Opening up one of these adamantium eggs would not only potentially cause a lot of problems in the short term, (suddenly, a herd of goats transforms into a herd of tyrannosaurus) but the effect would occur across the map, potentially making turning an enemy fortress of goblins into, say, an enemy fortress of ice giants.

You'd also tick off other Nations, who might have a big problem with you releasing what amounts to an unnatural disaster onto the entire world, just so you can score some adamantium. Who do you think you are, anyway? That adamantium was there for a reason!

The demons that you normally encounter might also be a lot worse. Maybe the ones you immediately have to deal with are just the stupidest, angriest, crazy tip of the iceberg, and most of the (smarter, faster, stronger) released demons teleport away right after they escape, to cause future problems.

This has the advantage of giving adamantium a real use in the game--other than simply making everything relatively easy, and pretty much ending the game. You'd *need* adamantium items, simply to survive against the most powerful demons, the strongest mutations, the worst cataclysms of the magic release. Some of the baddest demons might actually be resistant or immune to damage from anything other than adamantium weapons.

The magic flow itself would have some advantages, however, and you could eventually harness it for yourself. Tiles in contact with the flow could have special properties. They could have random trap effects--much hotter or colder than the surrounding area, be immensely poisonous, cause incurable diseases, be permanently dark, or filled with electricity, any effect a "spell" would normally produce, except without the ability to cast the spell. It would just be a localized effect that you could maybe take advantage of, by building your fortress around it (which I think better keeps within the theme of the game). 

Spells themselves might possibly be researched/developed over time, but I think it would actually work better in DF if magic was too volatile to try to actually force into doing anything for you.

You could be benefited by magic, or even make things from magical ore, or a magical gem, but trying to get this flow of raw wild magic to do something that it doesn't want to do would be like us trying to go back in time, or go faster than light. We might someday be able to do it, but not any time within the forseeable future. Learning to cast spells would be like learning to use a whole new type of physics that we've never encountered before.

Having magic work in this crazy, unpredictable, and dangerous way, would make the late-game a lot more fun, as you try to deal with what's now a low-magic world, suddenly and randomly being altered into a high-magic world. It would keep the game challenging and interesting-no matter how developed and advanced your fortress had gotten-without negating all the hard work and effort you put into it, up to that point

Spells are blah. Wizards flinging a grocery list of game-breaking abilities is more blah. World-shattering magical apocalypse is fun.

That said, there could be a lot of low-magic effects that would be accessible before the adamantium was breached (caused by magic "leaking" out of the adamantium). Somebody, I'm not sure who, but thanks!-had the excellent suggestion of dreamcatchers helping bad moods. To this could be added things like glowing gems, 1-use magic soap that "washed" a year off of a dwarf's life, making him/her younger, candles that created clouds of sleep-inducing gas, either making dwarfs sleep better, or as a trap; items that never wore out, or that made the user more skilled in their use, or that did work on their own, leathers/hides that allowed shapechanging into whatever they were made from, for a short period of time, etc.

I think dwarfs should be confined to this type of "item-creation" magic.

Elfs might only be able to grow plants with "magical" properties--plants that produce a lot of food in a small space, or that cure illness, or carnivorous guard-plants. Stuff like that, that you could possibly trade seeds with them for.

Humans might have priests that, while they might not have "holy spells" to fling, would be able to make items that repel undead creatures, like crosses vs vampires, or bless things, making holy water, or weapons that damage demons, that type of thing.

Evil races might be able to make cursed items, poisons, acids, etc.

The only ones that I think should be flinging around fireballs and that sort of thing, should be the more powerful demons, and whoever "built" the adamantium cages in the first place--who may very well be Gandalf-level demigod wizard types, and who may not look too favorably upon whoever released the demons.
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Mikademus

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #192 on: December 14, 2008, 04:22:29 am »

Little's suggestion is nice: Elven civilisations (keeps, towns etc) could have a Mother Tree that is planted when a settlement is established and grows, and with it its power. Then mages could have their own trees that grow over time (Heart Tree?). This implies a nature-related ritualistic power different from the dwarven kind. Nice symmetry with the already existing racial profiles and proclivities. It also makes the Mother Tree a good target - imagine the happy thoughts of the dwarf with a bed made from an elven Mother Tree! I'd also like to see the artifact made from Mother Tree wood by a dwarf with a fell mood *biiiiig grin*

SirHoneyBadger, yeah, what you say ties well in with the rest of the concept, and also with that in the notion discussed here dwarves get a large boost (at least in potential) to their power when gaining the Heart of the Mountain. That the raw force contained in it would warp the Heart's surroundings (summons, mutations or whatever) adds a dimension to it, and also explains why the elves' Mother and Heart Trees grow slowly and are less powerful: it's an intentional check and limitation on the chaotic nature of the flux that is magic, and this in fact reflects nature itself which is a high-inertia equaliser on entropic chaos. Perhaps there could be some special buildings or mechanisms dwarves could make that buffers this creeping warp? Magic engravings (seals)? Making and planting fields (of special plants?) the produce of which absorbs the raw chaos (perhaps this would be good raw material for alchemy?).
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If I wanted to recreate the world of one of my favorite stories, I should be able to specify that there is a civilization called Groan, ruled by Earls from a castle called Gormanghast.
You won't have trouble supplying the Countess with cats, or producing the annual idols to be offerred to the castle. Every fortress is a pale reflection of Ghormenghast..

zzzdude

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #193 on: December 14, 2008, 05:13:39 am »

Simply put: Dwarves are not spellcasters.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Creating a magic system?
« Reply #194 on: December 14, 2008, 05:25:43 am »

Mikademus:
I don't think I agree with the idea that digging that deeply *should* increase the dwarfs' power, though. Not across the board, anyway. In some ways, sure. Magic should give you more options and more "toys to play with", and magic can always be a whole lot of fun, but I feel it's important for there to be things that strongly counter that power-up. That's why I suggested a major shift in the world, by "the heart of the mountain", or wild magic, or whatever you want to call it, being this vastly dangerous thing that you can either open, like Pandora's Box, or wisely leave alone. 

More and more power = less and less challenge, and challenge is what makes any good game fun to play, especially DF.

I really think a lot of thought needs to be put into the consequences (yes, I know it's a bad word) of powerful magic in the game. I feel strongly that they should be dramatic and severe. Even cataclysmic. It's desireable for the precipitous dwarf fortress "learning curve" to always be maintained, where the more you can do, the more that can be done to you.

I think there should be rewards for *not* digging "too greedily, and too deeply", and I think the stability of your fortress's environment should be one of them. After all, not everyone is going to want a lot to do with the more potent forms of magic, and it would be nice if this was a choice you could make as you played the game.

There are tons of games out there where magic is just icing on cake, where it doesn't serve any purpose other than to function as an excuse to increasingly reward play. I don't want magic in DF to be anything like that. I want it to have risks, and costs, and maybe even it's own agenda.
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