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[Osmosis Jones]

If that method of magic gets introduced, I'm so starting a fire imp farm, and modding in ice wights for the frost components.

[Neonivek]

spells shouldn't be devastating enough to kill a fortress.

unless used in a certain way, such as portal to the dining hall allowing the goblins in
pulling the lever remotely, to unlease the dwarves lava
making a dwarf go temporarily insane, to cause a tantrum spiral

in other words, spells should only be powerful when used strategically.

Well spells powerful enough to destroy whole fortresses without causing chain reactions (or if the enemy handles them correctly) goes far outside ordinary magic in Fortress and Adventure mode.

Wizard mode would be a good time for that!

[bjlong]

Just a quick thought on magic:

I'd like to see magic like magma--not entirely necessary, but you're able to design an entire fortress around it.

[Granite26]

Toady has already started implimenting a regent-based magic system.

The difficulty of gathering the regeants without destroying them or your dwarves offsets the power of the magic quite nicely, as well. Not to mention figuring out how to safely handle such objects once created.

You people talking about mana and related things are totally missing this potential aspect of magic.

That's not magic! That's just...  Engineering!
    -Interesting Times, Terry Pratchett

Nah, you're certainly right about that, and it would be an awesome system.  The only problem is that it would be the ONLY magic system allowed.  (Couldn't mod in real wizards)

Id like a system that can carry over to Adventure mode more easily... I doubt depression will mean too much... though it would be interesting.

Well, it would make NPC wizards brooding and quick to anger.  There's a long history of the costs to players being slightly less onerous than to NPCs...  You do have a point, and I don't know how to solve that.

[Neonivek]

"I don't know how to solve that."

I was thinking of doing a suggestion for a Sanity system (another one) that involved all sort of natural and supernatural alterations of your personality giving you Psychosis, Neurosis, and minor forms of Sociopathy until it goes into full blown insanity that makes your character near unplayable until they recover.

It even was supposed to divide the kind of stress between: Reality Weakening, Psychological need, and Overloads. (For example magic forcing your Jollyness above homeostasis would cause the mind to create mental barriers in the form of psychosis and thus you could suffer blackouts)

It could work and the way I was designing it, it was supposed to be possible even in Adventure mode as the character's self-perception (which I can't explain without spoilers) is supposed to give indicators of sevear mental stress.

So combined with a magic system your character could, through magic stress, gain an OCD causing him to scratch a lot causing his hands to constantly be "Bruised" with light bleeding.

Wow I just realised that one be one sure way to get rid of Casual magic... Sure you could survive but your slowly driving the magician insane. You need breaks

[Tormy]

spells shouldn't be devastating enough to kill a fortress.

unless used in a certain way, such as portal to the dining hall allowing the goblins in
pulling the lever remotely, to unlease the dwarves lava
making a dwarf go temporarily insane, to cause a tantrum spiral

in other words, spells should only be powerful when used strategically.

Well spells powerful enough to destroy whole fortresses without causing chain reactions (or if the enemy handles them correctly) goes far outside ordinary magic in Fortress and Adventure mode.

Wizard mode would be a good time for that!

Perhaps in wizard mode...but spells or rituals shouldn't be that powerful in fortress mode EVER. That would be kinda pointless. I am preferring the standard magic systems with "normal" DD/AoE dmg spells, heals, enchancts, blessings etc. Rituals can be very interesting in a game like DF. The rituals in Dominions 3. were very interesting also, but some of those were extremely powerful, and kinda imbalanced.

[Silverionmox]

Perhaps in wizard mode...but spells or rituals shouldn't be that powerful in fortress mode EVER. That would be kinda pointless. I am preferring the standard magic systems with "normal" DD/AoE dmg spells, heals, enchancts, blessings etc. Rituals can be very interesting in a game like DF. The rituals in Dominions 3. were very interesting also, but some of those were extremely powerful, and kinda imbalanced.

It's the normal D&D damage spells etc. that are overpowered.. that's why they need to put artificial limits to their use (max. spells known per level, nr. of spells per day, etc.).

I do agree that rituals are very interesting and fitting DF, but they're a far from the "destruction on demand"-spells. Rituals could involve weeklong chantings by a choir of dwarves, and the placement of the right kind of statues on the right spots all over the map.. or even off-map.

[Neonivek]

Not all magical Rituals in Dwarf Fortress need to be handled by the magic system though.

Demons for example could have extensive ritual system planned out far before the magic system that is mostly seperate.

[Granite26]

The nice thing about pointby systems is that they are easy to tweak in terms of cost.  Want magic to be rare?  Raise the cost such that only the most gifted can use it.  (or better yet, make 'magical nature' a personality trait a la sociability or liking outdoors and just rare)

[Tormy]

Perhaps in wizard mode...but spells or rituals shouldn't be that powerful in fortress mode EVER. That would be kinda pointless. I am preferring the standard magic systems with "normal" DD/AoE dmg spells, heals, enchancts, blessings etc. Rituals can be very interesting in a game like DF. The rituals in Dominions 3. were very interesting also, but some of those were extremely powerful, and kinda imbalanced.

I do agree that rituals are very interesting and fitting DF, but they're a far from the "destruction on demand"-spells. Rituals could involve weeklong chantings by a choir of dwarves, and the placement of the right kind of statues on the right spots all over the map.. or even off-map.

Not all magical Rituals in Dwarf Fortress need to be handled by the magic system though.

I absolutely agree. Rituals would be perfect to obtain some benefits for the fortress itself.
Some ideas:
Empowerment Chant [Some dwarves will randomly gain some specific skills/some of their existing attributes will become better.]
Fecundity Chant [Baby boom!]
Ritual of Protection [Some ancient spirits might appear to defend the fortress.]
Anger Calming Chant [Morale boost!]
 

[TrombonistAndrew]

Toady has already started implimenting a regent-based magic system.

The difficulty of gathering the regeants without destroying them or your dwarves offsets the power of the magic quite nicely, as well. Not to mention figuring out how to safely handle such objects once created.

You people talking about mana and related things are totally missing this potential aspect of magic.

That's not magic! That's just...  Engineering!
    -Interesting Times, Terry Pratchett

Nah, you're certainly right about that, and it would be an awesome system.  The only problem is that it would be the ONLY magic system allowed.  (Couldn't mod in real wizards)

If by real wizards, you mean a system where "magic points" are used up to case spells, you may or may not be right anyway; I have no idea if Toady wants to go that direction. However, historically, the concept of magic users having a pool of mana to use is a recent concept. Spellcasters would:

have some innate magic ability such as divining or abnormally great strength;
find ways of using other items' innate magic such as by potion brewing or artifice;
have special powers granted by higher powers - usually a deity.

I find the concept of having a mana pool to be archaic for this game in the same way that having a hit point pool is. However, the ritual idea is great - and matches up very well with the "higher powers" concept.

[irmo]

(needless hostility retracted)

[TrombonistAndrew]

Toady, if you're reading this: PLEASE don't implement magic. Do anything else. Rebalance food production. Improve sieges. Fix the morale mechanics. Do some work on the economy. Just don't pour your efforts down this rathole.

I disagree with your general sentiment, but agree with this. Magic is icing on the cake. But it's still fun to talk about it.

[Mikademus]

Toady, if you're reading this: PLEASE don't implement magic. Do anything else. Rebalance food production. Improve sieges. Fix the morale mechanics. Do some work on the economy. Just don't pour your efforts down this rathole.

I'm usually not confrontational or abusive, but seriously, man, stfu. A well-implemented magic system would neither assume undue implementation time or be anything but advantageous for the game. The most given suggestion is simply to build on the current artefact system, which sounds very dwarfish to boot. You're screaming fear and doom and trying to speak for us all. Get out of here and cool down before returning.

[Tormy]

Not all magical Rituals in Dwarf Fortress need to be handled by the magic system though.

Demons for example could have extensive ritual system planned out far before the magic system that is mostly seperate.

Things I've learned from this thread:

- Not all magic will be handled by the magic system.
- This is in spite of the magic system being open-ended enough to handle damn near anything.
- The magic system won't need any particular flavor, or even any defined rules. It can consist entirely of vague suggestions.
- Absolutely no effort will be made to balance magic in terms of gameplay. This will be left to modders.
- Everyone will have access to different types of magic, such as [something] and [to be determined] and [god only knows].
- Magic will enhance every part of the game.

Feh.

Toady, if you're reading this: PLEASE don't implement magic. Do anything else. Rebalance food production. Improve sieges. Fix the morale mechanics. Do some work on the economy. Just don't pour your efforts down this rathole.

Please stop trolling in this topic. We are talking about generic magic systems here and the possibilities/benefits of those.
You probably won't see an user created specific magic system in this topic which has 150 predefined and well detailed spells. We are just giving generic -magery related- ideas to Toady. That was the purpose of this thread.