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[Neonivek]

Well... it could run on Low AND High magic...

Everyone gets low magic if they are lucky

And Wizards, gods, and Ultimate Creatures/items get high magic

[Zorgn]

Very cool stuff here.

In my opinion, magic needs to be kept to a minimum. I like the idea of late in the game if certain prerequisites are met, one powerfull wizard comes in as a sort of noble. I don't like the idea of bribery (at least not in Fortress mode). I'd like the wizard to occasionaly run around and do little fun things like enchanting, but for the most part staying the hell out of the way (like the apprentice idea. keep him busy.)

As to what Idiom asked earlier, when the Wizard is angry, I'd wish him to go back to his room and not do anything helpful. No more enchanting beds or swords untill he's in a better mood. Perhaps occasionaly do something like blowing holes in you dam. But if someone takes a swing at him, I fully expect him to set the offender on fire. And their family. And possibly just melt half your fortress. You don't mess with wizards.

For the enemy, I really hope they do not have wizards. Perhaps with their final assault they could send their goblin/elf/human equivalent along to do interesting things like make X% of your traps inoperable or have their troops breath water. Something other than the usual mass destruction spells, but still insanely dangerous.

Magic should be severely limited in terms of how many can use it, but not in terms of power.

[Silverionmox]

Well... it could run on Low AND High magic...

Everyone gets low magic if they are lucky

And Wizards, gods, and Ultimate Creatures/items get high magic

It's not the difference in power, it's the difference in frequency. Magic isn't extraordinary and amazing anymore if every stable boy does it - it becomes just a part of physics then.
An additional problem with common magic is the effect on the economy: that's going to be quite different from a medieval economy if teleportation, haste or create <whatever> are commonly practised magical procedures.

[Muz]

My suggestion on magic
Lol, since the Slaves to Armok world seems to apply a realistic approach to things, here's a scientific approach to magic I thought of over a few years but never had the chance to use in a game yet.

Magic is at its simplest converting energy into another kind of energy. This is done through a magic dimension - energy is moved in and out of that dimension by mages. Magical energy works in a similar way to electrical energy, with the movement of a few subatomic particles.

These particles come mostly from magical metals like mithril, adamantine, elerium, and zrbite. Magic doesn't work on Earth because we don't have adamantine.. in a planet that has an adamantine core, it becomes more common. Traces of the material in another object allow it to store and 'phase in' magic. In people, the particles are embedded within the soul.

I wrote like 5 pages on it a few years ago, obviously I was influenced by Arcanum or something back then. Most of the ideas were for a more scientific method of using the AD&D style magic

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that Toady will think up a magic style which I'll end up stealing in the end. Just to mention my thoughts on it

[Neonivek]

It's not the difference in power, it's the difference in frequency. Magic isn't extraordinary and amazing anymore if every stable boy does it - it becomes just a part of physics then.
An additional problem with common magic is the effect on the economy: that's going to be quite different from a medieval economy if teleportation, haste or create <whatever> are commonly practised magical procedures

Hense why a powerful wizard in many senses would be able to mess with the economy, destroy towns, and create armies out of diamonds!
-Yay Wizard Arc!!! My favorite of the v2 arcs!

Anyhow I don't ever think magic will ever get to stable boy proportions... though if it does, it only means that the requirement to cast magic, and possibly training, prevents them from simply using it superfluously and costless.

[Muz]

Well, with the rate at which dwarves learn, I wouldn't be surprised if stable boys and peasants end up accidentally picking up magic. Hmm.. accidentally picking up magic. That sounds fun.

[Silverionmox]

Hense why a powerful wizard in many senses would be able to mess with the economy, destroy towns, and create armies out of diamonds!
-Yay Wizard Arc!!! My favorite of the v2 arcs!

Yes, I'd like to see that.

Anyhow I don't ever think magic will ever get to stable boy proportions... though if it does, it only means that the requirement to cast magic, and possibly training, prevents them from simply using it superfluously and costless.

If the advantages of magic are great, sooner rather than later everyone will have learnt it if the only restriction is training. Then it will be mundane, just like electricity. I don't think that's interesting for a game.
The magic arc will require much thought about which restrictions will be put on magic. Random innate talent is an option, so that a stable boy will occasionally be able to use magic. Formal training another, divine approval, a hereditary trait, abilities, race, ... and that's only the individual restrictions, there also are the environmental ones, but those have been touched upon in another thread.

[Neonivek]

In many settings... everyone can do magic but it is either

1) Expencive!: In many settings... a Kingdom has only one wizard because it requires royal funding to even have one since they require piles of gold, jewels, mirrors, and other rare objects
2) Secrative: Basically that people arn't giving away the secret of magic
3) Time wasting: Takes a long time to develop it or research
4) Dangerous: Many ways in which this is done, in one setting it ages you quickly... in another it just downright causes you to combust

So simply speaking if it would take a stable boy years of intense training where he would have to study for years to develop a single spell... Then make him require expencive or rare objects to even think about casting it (Or a HUGE plot of land... or Tall tower) then you start to see why every stable boy wouldn't try to learn it.

[Mikademus]

the WN would come in when:

A. You've made so many artifacts.
B. Ambient Magic Fields are strong. (Depends on magic settings)
C. You've killed a powerful magic (megabeast) being, and they wish to know how it worked.
D. Randomly.
E. All of the above
F. Bug
G. Objects that at a distance looks like flies

There, fixed that for you.

[Pilsu]

I don't really like wizards in general, learning magic like math is lame

Dwarven magic strikes me as enchanted weapons/armor and golems, not throwing fire balls. Maybe a dash of necromancy in evil areas as they slowly affect your dwarves

[Granite26]

Just remember that DF isn't just about dwarves...  There are other races that will need to be dealt with.

[Neonivek]

Just remember that DF isn't just about dwarves...  There are other races that will need to be dealt with.

Heck, in Adventure mode right now the Humans are the most developed with Goblins in close second (though it can be argued that goblins are more developed then even humans)

The game is only called Dwarf Fortress right now (Though technically its name is slightly more then just Dwarf Fortress)... because that is the focus of Toady's current work... once V2 is being made it will likely be called something else.

[Granite26]

Personally, I'd like to see the magic developed into a grid.

Down the side, you'd get High, Middle, and Low magic.  High magic is only certain races, and it defines them (think Gandalf the Mega-Beast).  Middle magic would be available to certain individuals based on an innate stat.  These individuals would be elite or special members (approx noble status).  Low magic would be spells that any member of society could use.

On the top, you'd have different flavors of magic.  Runic, Artifact, Gem, Ritual, Arcane, Divine, whatever.  (I'm using arcane to refer to spells with guestures and words that are quick, ritual to refer to long, divine to refer to innate abilities like prayer or psionics)

Each race in the raws would then have an entry

dwarves would have
Magic:Low:Artifact:3:(All) (3 being the base powerlevel they have, All refering to the spheres)

Elves might have
Magic:Mid:Arcane:5:(Nature, Water, Earth)

Ilithid
Magic:Low:Divine:2:(Mind)

Gandalf
Magic:High:Divine:5:(All)
Magic:Low:Rune:2:(All)

Demons
Magic:High:Divine:2:(All)

The spells would be hardcoded (have to be) by sphere, with a powerlevel (min) and whatnot.

[Neonivek]

I don't think as I said many times before... Divine will ever become a hands-on magic

[Tormy]

Very cool stuff here.

In my opinion, magic needs to be kept to a minimum.

Actually I dont know really..magic -if implemented properly- [one of the reasons Ive made this thread, so Toady can read my opening post about designing an alternative magic system] can be awesome. It is enchancing the gameplay [diversity first of all] and offers many strategical and tactical choices in the game world. Some people just dont wanna see high magic in their games, while some players would like to see a detailed magic system [D&D style or even some roguelike system could work easily - for example Angband's]. So the question is, how can we have a compromise between the players? I think that magic will be a cruical part of DF, thus we must be able to "control" it in the RAWs. Toady can implement a proper magical system, and everyone can play around it in the RAWs. That way you can keep magic on minimum or maximum in the game world whenever you want.

So I think that everyone should just post some ideas about a proper magic system what could work in DF, instead of posting "I wanna see magic kept on minimum". Especially since this thread is just a "guide" about implementing an alternative magic system.

Personally I think that magic must be linked to spheres. All civilizations should have access to spells related to their spell sphere. Dwarves for example should be able to use Earth magic, while Elves should focus on Nature magic. I wont post any particular spell ideas, since its absolutely pointless to do for now. If Toady will ever plan to install a detailed magic system, first he will need to work on the basics. If that is done, we can give him ideas about the spells.