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[Derakon]

I was just thinking about more ways to make the game "fun", and one of them that occurred to me is making fortresses during wartime. Remember, wars back in the day could last for many, many years. I could easily see dwarves creating "offensive settlements" - locations near the border, initially created as a place for dwarven warriors to rest and resupply, but eventually becoming fortresses in their own right.

The way I see this working is that on the embark screen, you get to see areas of influence for the conflicting civilizations. If you park your fortress near the border, then you're more likely to get attacked by the enemy civ. Initially your fort would be too small to be noticed; eventually it'd be too large to be attacked, but in the interim you'd have a major defense problem on your hands. The "win condition" here is to get your fort large enough that it is capable of withstanding any reasonable assault. Your fort has now pushed back your opponent's sphere of influence and increased your own.

At that point, ideally, we'd be able to "abandon" the fortress, hop back to the beginning of the conflict, pick a new area to settle on, and in this way create multiple fortresses "simultaneously" (i.e. in the same period of history), repeating the process as needed until the enemy is wiped off the map. But time enough for that once armies have been better fleshed-out.

This gives players another way to choose difficulty, and because borders are more or less arbitrary, also acts as an encouragement to pick "less than optimal" sites (turns out that most borders don't include places that have water, lava, forests, sand, and adamantine in close proximity).

[Tamren]

Good idea. "expanding the dwarven empire" should not be the only reason to make a fortress.

Besides the default, each situation could have pros and cons at all stages. They could also have objectives.

Ideas:
1. Convicted criminals banished to the wild to redeem themselves
- Very random skills (because criminals come from all walks of life)
- Low supplies (which means you will have to beg borrow or steal just to have enough to reach the fortress site)
- Distant relations with home civ until the fortress grows.

2. Military forward outpost
- Lots of soldiers in founding party and lots of soldier immigrants as well as a regular influx of complete soldier squads.
- Frequent sieges, you are here for a reason and that reason is to bleed an enemy fort dry of soldiers or assault it directly.
- Possible attacks en-route to the fortress. (this is wartime)

Stuff like that, may post more later.

[DI7789]

That sounds like a slight variation on the scenarios in UnReal World (For those who have played that game) and it sounds good

[Draco18s]

Except the going back in time part...

[Fossaman]

This is an interesting idea, and it gives me another. Quotas. The army needs x steel axes and y suits of armor every year, as well as z meals, or whatever. Your fortress' job is to provide those. Call it construction mandates from the king, or whatever, but with stuff your fortress actually has access to.

[Derakon]

I didn't mean literally back in time, of course. What I'm envisioning, rather, is that the player would be able to create multiple fortresses in the same period of time (currently, all fortresses must be sequential). I don't think it'd be reasonable to try to actually make those fortresses simultaneously - it'd be a logistics nightmare - so instead what I'm thinking is that the game would let you "rewind time" to replay an era in a different location, with the caveat that the fortress you made earlier is replaying its own development during that same timeframe.

It sounds confusing, I know. Maybe best left out of the concept.

[Granite26]

Tamren,

So you're saying that on the embark screen, you'd get to pick a challenge 'build' that would determine what you started with?  (Or maybe just changed the costs of things... The military build would price up all the non-military stuff...)

I like that a lot....  Mostly because it wouldn't change the emergent, play it as it comes out, feel of the game.


I'm a huge fan of anything that increases the 'play the world' aspect of the game.  I think that the OPs suggestion will be added in by default when A: we get the ability to retire a city (which seems to be functionally equivilant to storing resource counts for the overland war bit) and B: Countries have real borders.

I'd like to see you encouraged to build in less optimal places in order to produce massive quantities of wartime useful goods.  Something like what Fossaman said, only rather than being required to export them, after you retired, you'd have the stuff available as imports.  (So you could build a massive farm fort, and it would do you some good because the other forts could later buy food from it dirt cheap.  This would be a good 'starter' project for new players.)

[Hyndis]

This is an interesting idea, and it gives me another. Quotas. The army needs x steel axes and y suits of armor every year, as well as z meals, or whatever. Your fortress' job is to provide those. Call it construction mandates from the king, or whatever, but with stuff your fortress actually has access to.

What happens if you run out of flux or iron, yet still have the demands for producing those things?

In most other games, such as the City-Building series, the penalty is a reduced reputation at home, such as less favor in the Roman Senate or by the Emperor or Pharaoh or whatnot.

In DF, I'd imagine the penalty for failing would be a siege of hammerers. 

[Veroule]

I would like to see this as a more behind the scenes type of thing.  First the Legends screen for a world needs to always be viewable and data should be added from a fortress continuously.  The same types of things that add to Legends during WorldGen needs to continue occuring during fortress mode.

Next the state of the world should be used to determine how some things go.  The fortress is new so only dwarves should know about it.  You embarked on a civ border then there should be an increased chance of scouts.  You embarked well within a dwarven territory then the odds of enemies getting through should be extremely small.  You embarked on a contested border, then immigration should have military trained dwarves, with decent levels of training.  You embarked near an at war border then your immigrants should be a little more mixed but still be somewhat military heavy.

Basically I am saying use the world's current state for determining game events.  And actually update the worlds current state during fortress mode.  A dwarven liason should arrive with the caravan and the first thing out of his mouth should be like these:
"I have news from the north.  We suffered a severe defeat at Rovod Kudar.  The King orders that military production be increased."
"Our armies have cleansed the elven scourge from the east.  We have enslaved the savages and will be looking to bring civilization to that area."
"Sadly the war with the humans remains at a stalemate.  We have repulsed them many times at Anam Kulet and Enir Shalag.  It was quite lucky that a squad from Zag Usal killed some of thier advanced forces.  We would not have been able to reach you otherwise."

Finally, make the caravans not actually show up if they get waylayed.

I think quite a bit of this is actually planned for the Army and Caravan Arcs, how about we all wait to see what Toady really has in mind.

[Tamren]

So you're saying that on the embark screen, you'd get to pick a challenge 'build' that would determine what you started with?  (Or maybe just changed the costs of things... The military build would price up all the non-military stuff...)

Yes and no.

First of all, embarking will eventually get MUCH MUCH more complex. The money you start with will not be a set value, it would depend on things like the personal wealth of all founding members. Secondly, embarking would not be instant. Your caravan would have to physically travel to the location you have selected. Think of oregon trail, only with carp and battle axes.

The challenges would not be "missions" per se. They are simply situations that you can choose to play under. For example, there is a war on and you must establish a military outpost. Sounds easy right? Think again, the main objectives would be:
- Build and maintain an army camp, expect to be sieged heavily and often.
- Maintain stocks of weapons, armour and other supplies. (you would have a quota for most of it)
- Feed and house large army detachments of state soldiers.
- Train and maintain a "home guard" to hold down the fort while the soldiers are away.

The gameplay of this type of fortress is far different than the one we have now. Basically you are the appointed civilian quartermaster to an army fort. Instead of a king you have a general and his demands are those of his troops. Your performance as a player is geared towards supporting every need of the dwarf army and defending your ass while the army is out killing stuff.

There are many challenges here that you wouldn't find in other situations. The vast majority of your fortress population will be made of up career soldiers. These soldiers will have to be fed, housed and bunked, and being career soldiers they have no time for anything else. You must support them with a relatively small number of civilians. Because your fort would invariable be set close to some enemy be it fortress or dragon, its going to be attacked frequently. You will have to be able to defend yourself while most of the army is in the field.

You will however have some advantages on your side:
- Upon arrival the army will set up a basic camp and construct a palisade. You will eventually have to build more permanent quarters but in the beginning the army will be self sufficient while you get your act in gear. The soldiers will also build a defensive palisade with imported materials. The starting wall will not be very big and will eventually have to be replaced by a bigger one. You can draft soldiers to help build and upgrade the outer wall but you must supply imported or local materials.
- Being part of the state army, your fortress will receive regular shipments of supplies as well as sporadic traders. This support can't get through during sieges so it is important to break them quickly.
- Attacking an army fort bristling with soldiers is a losing proposition to most. Rival civs will never attack your fort, but your intended enemy will attack constantly and in force.
- Your starting caravan will be over 60% elite soldiers, nothing is going to bother it en route from A to B.

--

Now compare that to something like playing a party of criminals. Kicked out into the wilderness to redeem yourselves. Without even I might add, a wagon.

[Osmosis Jones]

In DF, I'd imagine the penalty for failing would be a siege of hammerers. 

Which then solves the problem of supplying x suits of armour and y steel hammers 

[Golgath]

In DF, I'd imagine the penalty for failing would be a siege of hammerers. 

Which then solves the problem of supplying x suits of armour and y steel hammers 

I would imagine it would not be quite that easy.  I see it more like...

A party of armed dwarves have arrived from the mountainhome, demanding to see your leader!

Halfway into your fortress for their 'meeting'...

Betrayal!  They have turned on us, the mountainhome has forsaken us!

Fun stuff.  Imagine being sieged by your own civ, and the first attack would bypass all your traps and fortifications.  And the ensuing morale problems might make your entire population turn on itself, especially those who care about tradition.

And why has this happened?  Because you didn't feel like making a few more steel longswords for the King. 

Of course, the real fun is when the king demands steel weapons of your glacier fort that is barely eking out an existence.

[Silver]

What about each fortress having a control over a certain area around it - i.e. civilization 4 give each city an area of influence. Fortresses with a certain proximity would have their influence area joined to cover larger areas. You can choose to build within your influence meaning an easier game but it will not increase the world map influence. Obviously starting outside it would make it harder but increase influence. Eventually we could gain control of the entire world map by completely covering it with influence. Religious influence could be used to convert other cities/races.This could also give religion a major increase in importance for fortress mode. Maybe even having elvin/goblin/human cities within our area of influence would therefore enable the use of starting new forts with that race - a bit like age of wonders if anyone played that. I don't want to turn DF into a clone of other games but there are definitely some good ideas that can be taken.

[Granite26]

What about each fortress having a control over a certain area around it - i.e. civilization 4 give each city an area of influence. Fortresses with a certain proximity would have their influence area joined to cover larger areas. You can choose to build within your influence meaning an easier game but it will not increase the world map influence. Obviously starting outside it would make it harder but increase influence. Eventually we could gain control of the entire world map by completely covering it with influence. Religious influence could be used to convert other cities/races.This could also give religion a major increase in importance for fortress mode. Maybe even having elvin/goblin/human cities within our area of influence would therefore enable the use of starting new forts with that race - a bit like age of wonders if anyone played that. I don't want to turn DF into a clone of other games but there are definitely some good ideas that can be taken.

I'm all for anything that affects the world after you abandon.  I.E. being encouraged to build in a spot to get an effect.

[Tamren]

So strategic colonization basically.

Instead of making fortresses and running them until you get bored and abandon, or they just self destruct. You would instead found fortresses of different types and then give up leadership to let them persist in the world. Build a prison to hold all the criminals, or form a party of criminals and found a fortress in a really dangerous area. Build a military fort to keep the goblins under control. Or just found a trade hub.

When you leave the fortress it would stay in the world like any other NPC town, only the fortress is as you left it.