Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Mohreb el Yasim]

The beastmaster whatshisname shouldn't have weapon and armorsmithing enabled in his job list either

he is a dungeon master ... so why shouldn't he have those things enabled, it is cool that dunegeon masters make armors and wepons ...

[Granite26]

A: Cannot be made under current game rules at that fort
B: involve a VERY high degree of randomness (like large gems)
C: require some raw materials left unprocessed "just in case".
D: or don't actually make anything a noble would want or could use.

A: Amen
B: Yeah, probably
C: Not so much
D: Hard to tell.

By which I mean, Nobles ask for what they like, regardless of what you have on hand.  Planning ahead (leaving stuff untouched and ordering extras just in case) is doable, making impossible things(rock beds and other 'items') out of what you can't get(sand) isn't.  Hopefully the sand thing will see a fix (imports or grinders), and the other is a tracked bug.

As far as the can't want or use, I try to be very liberal in what I think of as dwarven society.

[Tormy]

Other than the "impossible to fulfill" mandates, I actually like the system. It provides a sense of challenge. By impossible to fulfill, I do mean the mandates for glass in a sandless fort, but more importantly the large amount of "Make Bismuth items", "Make x large gems", "Make Pig Iron items" etc.

so to me the problems are mandates that:

A: Cannot be made under current game rules at that fort
B: involve a VERY high degree of randomness (like large gems)
C: require some raw materials left unprocessed "just in case".
D: or don't actually make anything a noble would want or could use.

Exactly, good points there Othob. I guess everyone knows that the mandate system is far from perfect as it is now.

[Mephansteras]

While I like the idea of nobles being more "Noble" in what they do and what their interests are, I think we need to make sure that these are dwarven nobles, and not just copies of how human nobility acts.

I really think they should be more practical and down-to-earth then human nobles in most ways, but also have grander goals. I'd love to see nobles mandating the construction of things like smoothed tunnels back to the mountain homes, mighty citadels, or even x number of warriors. Nobles should make decisions based on your fortress. You have a chasm filled with troglodytes? The noble should mandate some expedition to get rid of them (possibly lead by the noble themselves). Say you have an untouched gold vein that you're aware of. The noble might demand that your miners go and extract every ounce of gold from it. Have a kimberlite vein? Time to start searching for diamonds!

Now, standard mandates like "I want a silver chest in my room" are also fine, and fitting. I'd also like to see mandates along quality lines "I want an exceptionally crafted chest in my room" where the material is less important than the craftmanship put into it.

I'd also like to see the nobles take more of an interest in the state of the populace. Say, the Baron takes stock of the military every once in a while, and maybe works to improve their training or mandates equipment to fill in gaps. Or the Baroness Consort notices that your dwarves are wearing shabby clothing, and mandates enough new clothing to correct the problem.

These aren't new ideas, we've discussed them elsewhere. But hopefully they'll spark some inspiration in Toady.

[katana0182]

I agree with everyone's suggestions.

The positive side of "more active" nobles should also be emphasized:
*there are some bad ones, but some good ones too, most are in the middle; and most know the reason why they're still alive and allowed to be a noble is because the commoners don't hate them so much that they get together and overthrow them;
*they can call for help if the fortress is threatened, and it will probably come;
*they're skilled fighters, can organize the fortress defense, rather than relying on a militia, and their guards can help defend the fortress; primarily, the nobility should be a military caste, rather than a caste of rich parasites (of course, there are exceptions);
*assuming they're kept happy, they're perfectly content to let the commoners run the show; mayorial elections and managerial decisions still go on as always, common criminals are sent to the cages, chains, or the hammerer by the Sheriff's court.
*sometimes they might be motivated to start a metallurgical industry, expand Dwarven vintnery or explore the under-ground river, or even go hunting for hidden fun stuff;

Another dynamic that I would propose is that only the fortress guard can be used as soldiers with real weapons (of course, individual dwarves can fight, and defend themselves) until a noble arrives and militarily organizes the fortress. The fortress guard should be the stereotypical "band of peasants with torches, hoes, and pitchforks" led by a sheriff, who could be a minor swordsman; they should behave much as a squad of dwarven soldiers does now--run around scattered, return to the mess hall if hungry... they shouldn't be able to bear real arms, except for the few hunters, just farm implements or tools

When the noble arrives, he organizes the Dwarven Militia, which can turn dwarves--with drill, weapons, armor, lots of physical training, and plenty of time, into several squads of fine soldiers, able to face down even a great and numerous host of goblins.

This would be the nobility I'd like to see.

[Quift]

I like the idea of houses. all dwarfes should belong to a house. the more positions held by a house the more prestige that house has. The king will then belong to that house and represent that house being his power base. all dwarfes belonging to a house gets a happy thought when the house gains prestige, which can be gained by making demands that are satisfied, or if you dont meet them the house looses pretisge giving all dwarfes belonging to that house a bad thougt. This would simulate a better dynamic than the hammerer killing of random dwarfes. would also make demands easier to understand, motivate why they are done, and give a choice in whether to meet them or not.

So the player would face a choise and have to decide wheterh this house is big enough to cause problems if demands are not met contra the value and difficulty of satisfaying said demand. a house with only 5 hauler members requiring an adamantine statue and a royal hall. screw it. a house with 50 members, among them 2 champions and the king requiring a separate hall, lined with golden statues and tables for all. Ooop, better get building.

[Neonivek]

Well remember that the reason Nobles can ask for impossible things is because they are disconnected with the real world. In fact this is why they chose a random dwarf and jail them if they somehow couldn't get their Basalt table.

Nobility arn't even there for the happyness of your own Dwarves, in fact I have no idea why the Dwarves even have Nobility at this point, since Nobles get angry if anyone other then someone above them has a nice room. The fact that a Noble can go insane just because the Peasants are happy just shows how much of a bubble the Nobility are.

However at the same time this is a game... I don't know how much a player likes being constantly harassed by a Noble who will, without a doubt, kill and jail his dwarves every once in a while.

There needs to be a system in place where Nobles get a reality check... For example if they asked for Adamantium three or four times and didn't get any, and there isn't any to buy or in your possession, they should change what they will ask for until you have some in which the cycle starts all over again. Assuming of course they arn't downright insane, which should be possible.

In fact each level of Nobility, being more and more disconnected then the next, should be able to withhold changing their unrealistic demands longer. So a Mayor gets the point after the first time but a King could take over ten times, depending on his personality, before he realises that Adamantium is actually rare.

[Kazindir]

It'd be nice if they showed up ONLY if you can meet their requirements. What kind of a baron shows up to a "fort" that's basically a pit in the ground made of sandstone?

To turn that around, when that sandstone pit starts churning out sizable amounts of wealth, what noble-without-portfolio *isn't* going to appreciate being told to go and take over the place?

They shouldn't demand things you cannot hope to supply though, eg glass stuff on a map with no sand.

The "important" people nobles who aren't really nobility as such don't have massive requirements - eg the Philosopher can usually be kept happy without a vast personal palace, and the Dungeon Master likewise can not only be kept happy reasonably easily, he is even willing to get his hands dirty being useful as long as you've found some interesting feature.

[Silverionmox]

Combining some ideas: Nobles currently have rising demands according to their status. Let there be a chance for them to ask for something anytime their (or their house's) status warrants extra wealth, step-by-step. They could for example start with asking a chest, then a finely decorated chest, then a masterpiece chest, then a masterpiece silver chest, etc. Not in any particular order, but a random, more expensive type within the range of values appropriate for their status.

This would require the dwarves to remember and retain their demands. If their status drops, however, those trinkets remain in their possession. The corollary is that they won't ask for more stuff until their (or their house's) status rises above their former greatness (though occasionally they might relinquish the ownership of an item and demand a replacement of similar value). As a result the shifting balance of power doesn't simply require rearrangement of the furniture, but an ongoing expansion of resource extraction and industry, serving as an in-game need for expansion, more colonies, deeper mines, etc... stories of greed and industriousness, indeed! Strike the earth!

[tigrex]

I don't like nobles in any way, shape or form because they are simply external agents that force themselves onto the fortress.  (I like the mayor, so I'm not counting him here.)

I think that a few legendary dwarves should be given noble status by the king for services to the mountain home, and these should serve as fort nobility, siring heirs which will take on their duties whether or not they have the skill to do so.  The legendary nobles would keep some or all of their functions and give some kind of advantage to the fort. 

[Pilsu]

The beastmaster whatshisname shouldn't have weapon and armorsmithing enabled in his job list either

he is a dungeon master ... so why shouldn't he have those things enabled, it is cool that dunegeon masters make armors and wepons ...

Well it's quite frustrating to have to allow specific people to forges just to keep the bastard out. He doesn't even like steel, if he did I might consider training him