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Author Topic: More realistic nobles & noble dynamics  (Read 2278 times)

katana0182

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More realistic nobles & noble dynamics
« on: September 03, 2008, 08:31:05 pm »

The hereditary nobility, as it currently stands, doesn't act like a "nobility" should. For instance, their deaths have no consequences, most of their demands can be ignored, they are unguarded, except if the player assigns a guard to them, they do not excessively tax the yeomanry or the peasantry, don't deflower dwarven peasant damsels who catch their eye (angering their families, perhaps even inciting a revolt), don't have friends who can bail them out of nearly any situation, regardless of the law, don't try to really order or micromanage their subjects, or pull truly idiotic stunts like only a hereditary nobility is capable of.

Introducing enhanced noble dynamics would be a great and fun addition to Dwarf Fortress. It would add an enemy within the fortress, rather than an annoyance to be disposed of through convenient accident.

Suggestions:
* Every noble, upon reaching adulthood is a trained fighter of some sort, and requires armor and weapons, or arrives with weapons if coming to a new fortress;
* Every noble personally arrives with several highly trained guards, rather than relying on the "DM" to designate their own "royal guard"; in the case of nobles born in the fortress, they could recruit and train their own guard.
* If a noble is locked into some room, the guards break down the door. If the noble is drowning, the guards, who are master swimmers, jump in, and haul him out. If the ceiling should collapse, his guards pull out their picks and dig him out of the rubble. If the noble is, say, threatened by his subject dwarves, the dwarves are traitors, and turned over to the Hammerer for disposal.
* The noble gets what he wants. If he wants a room, he sends his vizier (or his guards, if the vizier is ineffective) to summon a miner to dig it out to whatever dimensions He desires. If he wants it engraved, engravers are ordered to engrave his room. If he wants a chest, he sends his servants to take one from a peasant's shop, or failing that, from a peasant's home. If he demands a bed, because he is getting tired, his guards poke the sleeping carpenter with their swords, and order a bed made, and brought to his room. If he wants a new mayor, the old mayor is put on trial for "treason", and Hammered. If the noble is drunk and thinks the goblins besieging the fort are his long-lost hunt companions, he orders the gate opened, and a royal banquet to be thrown for them.
* Instead of having lower morale or designating some random dwarf for a hammering when their demands are not met, the noble ensures their demands are met by sending their guards to, for example, hold the mayor at sword-point, beat the **** out of several masons (or the mason's guild leader), threaten the book-keeper's children, or do something else nasty (especially to highly skilled dwarves) until they get their 10 obsidian statues.
* If, for example, the peasantry is restless or seditious, the noble is from a noble family (and has relatives living elsewhere) knighted by the Dwarf-King, and can request further guards--or even soldiers from the King--serving under the noble's personal command, to encourage the peasantry to comply with their reign.
* If the noble were to die of something other than natural causes or "misadventure", then his relatives in other mountain-homes would be rather upset, and might send parties of warriors to enforce accountability for his death. If those armies were defeated, then the King might get involved, sending several armies to reduce the fortress to a flaming wreck.
* It would be interesting if the user could highlight a noble and hit (o) to (o)verthrow them. Of course, if this occured unsuccessfully, the player might face the hammerer's wrath.
* Of course, if the peasantry were to resist the armies, then that fortress could form the nucleus of a new Dwarven Kingdom, or a Dwarven Republic.
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Draco18s

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Re: More realistic nobles & noble dynamics
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2008, 08:45:58 pm »

*If a noble is crushed under a bridge, well, god rest his soul.
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Fieari

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Re: More realistic nobles & noble dynamics
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2008, 08:57:08 pm »

I agree with the above.  Because Dwarf Fortress needs a bit more difficulty, and living with the nobility is part of that.

However, ALL that difficulty is removed when players can assassinate the nobility without consequence.  I think the solution to this, unfortunately, is only available when diplomacy gets extended.  Because the thing about the nobility is that they are powerful men who are friends with other powerful men.  The ONLY dwarf in DF currently like this is the mayor.

So, the game needs to keep track of nobles across the civilization.  One King and Queen, but multiples of all the others, based on family lines.  Each Duke would have Counts allied with him.  Each Count would have Barons allied with him, and each Baron would have Champions to call on.

If a noble you have dies for any reason, that noble's allies will show up, in force, to enact justice.  If goblins killed him, or something like that, they'll go off and call for war on the goblins... but if it was your fortress that did this?  They'll enact a very forceful "tax"... much in the manner the mafia would do so.

This could be implemented, to a lesser extent, right now by having each noble have a personal guard they COME with (not just assigned), who would enact revenge on your fort in case of "accidents".
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katana0182

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Re: More realistic nobles & noble dynamics
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2008, 11:25:15 pm »

Most of the time, the noble should be passive, provided his wants are being satisfied, and he is not a sadist (or a masochist).  (There are some nobles who are, most definitely.) (Use of "he" implies "she" as well, in such cases as might apply.) Following the initial period of settling in, the noble should concentrate on his pursuits:
*Military prowess, and the combat arts; he is a knight, and the leader of the fortress' defense, responsible for the protection of the surrounding countryside, and the flow of commerce. He is also a servant of the Crown, and may be called to levy conscripts for a war.
**In smaller fortresses, he is directly responsible for the drilling of the Militia in the late fall, winter, and early spring.
**In larger fortresses, several Searjeants or Squires might supervise the training of groups of units.
**He leads the defense of the Fortress, standing atop the battlements, and surveying the besieging horde before him.
**During the trading season, and intermittently in the off season, patrols are dispatched regularly by him to keep the Dwarf-King's peace throughout the countryside.
**In times of war, or if the beacon-fires are lit, the Militia shall be levied to come to the aid of the King at his Mountain-Home, or upon the field of battle, and the Noble shall lead them to war.
*The noble's hobbies: The noble should have several hobbies, ranging from horseback riding, requiring the capture of horses, and the building of expensive stables, to the curation of a library within the Fortress, or to experimentation with the Arts Alchemical.
*The Wife's Hobbies: His wife might have her lady-like Dwarven hobbies, ranging from knitting, to horseback riding, or even the mechanickical arts. Keep those stockpiles filled with mechanisms if she gets into an Ada mood and tries to build an Analytical Engine driven by waterpower.
*The kids: Are training to be young nobles. May act bratty. Will have a personal trainer to tutor them in the combat arts, and a personal tutor to oversee their studies. Don't piss them off.

During all this, provided the nobles are appeased and not disturbed, they will be happy to leave the commoners alone to their labors (except, of course, if they are sadists...Elizabeth Bathory, anyone?) They will possibly also have feast-days, where they entertain guests in the Great Hall, or such other nonsense.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 11:30:46 pm by katana0182 »
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i2amroy

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Re: More realistic nobles & noble dynamics
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2008, 12:12:03 am »

*If a noble is crushed under a bridge, well, god rest his soul.

Or when he mysteriously falls into a pit full of Giant Cave Spiders! ;D
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Dwarfaholic

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Re: More realistic nobles & noble dynamics
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2008, 12:40:42 am »

*If a noble is crushed under a bridge, well, god rest his soul.

Or when he mysteriously falls into a pit full of Giant Cave Spiders! ;D

... which are crushed by a bridge.
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Pilsu

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Re: More realistic nobles & noble dynamics
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2008, 01:00:07 am »

Real nobles don't demand crystal glass items when they're impossible to acquire, they have brains. Nobles should be snooty but manageable, not a siege you can't get rid of

It'd be nice if they showed up ONLY if you can meet their requirements. What kind of a baron shows up to a "fort" that's basically a pit in the ground made of sandstone?

Oh and don't make them socialize with the rabble. That's stupid


The beastmaster whatshisname shouldn't have weapon and armorsmithing enabled in his job list either
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Dae

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Re: More realistic nobles & noble dynamics
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2008, 04:42:36 am »

One part of the Burrow Arc I can't wait for is when you designate an area to be the Nobility Borough, see the Baron get out to the mayor's, kill him because he's more popular than he is and flee to his quarters when all the mayor's friends run after him for an "happy thought".

I'm all for more difficult nobles, especially if your fortress is threatened in case of "mysterious accident".
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Silverionmox

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Re: More realistic nobles & noble dynamics
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2008, 05:32:44 am »

* It would be interesting if the user could highlight a noble and hit (o) to (o)verthrow them. Of course, if this occured unsuccessfully, the player might face the hammerer's wrath.
I'm all for immersive gameplay, but this goes a bit too far. ;)

Seriously, it would be a good thing if nobles were a bit more effective in enforcing their demands. Seizing goods is good - you can always make new stuff. Giving the only armorer in the fortress -effectively- a death sentence because the noble really wants gauntlets, is counterproductive. Dragging him to the forge with a guard on both sides until it's finished, is better. The best would be if the armorer in question actually cared whether the noble demanded something (for fear of fines/eviction/demotion/..), and actually hurried up production because of it. Right now punishments for unmet demands are just random violence.

Which brings me to an important point: nobles don't terrorize their subjects without consequences. They fulfill functions: they are placeholders for the king and as such they organize and lead the defense, exert justice and protect the wellfare of the land and the economy. The populace in turn serves in the military, abide by the law and pays taxes. If the noble doesn't fulfill his part of the deal, they don't. And it's always possible to appeal to higher authority, in this case the king, to remove the offending noble. Nobles that act like a blood-sucking parasite exist, but they are rare, and don't last long.

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Quift

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Re: More realistic nobles & noble dynamics
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2008, 06:44:13 am »

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=3037.0

This thread has 2 good posts on this. One of them happens to be mine.
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Tormy

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Re: More realistic nobles & noble dynamics
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2008, 07:49:01 am »

I agree with the above.  Because Dwarf Fortress needs a bit more difficulty, and living with the nobility is part of that.

However, ALL that difficulty is removed when players can assassinate the nobility without consequence. 

Yes, this is making no sense at all. However the mandate system must be balanced first of all. [Some mandates are impossible to complete + most of them annoying too] Ive always found the whole mandate system as a big annoyance in the game to be honest. Something should be done about it.
As for the noble part..yes the player shouldnt kill nobles without consequences.
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Othob Rithol

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Re: More realistic nobles & noble dynamics
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2008, 08:04:12 am »

What kind of a baron shows up to a "fort" that's basically a pit in the ground made of sandstone?

Every aristocratic court has a small mountain of absolutely useless, self centered, demanding, whining, arrogant, pathetic, cowardly, scheming, back-stabbing, foppish, and generally annoying young sons and daughters of nobility that drive the King/Queen absolutely nuts with their incessant ass kissing and pathetic "power plays". So the King/Queen pays back their parents loyal service by "rewarding" your fort with one of these "promising young nobles".

On Topic: I absolutely support this kind of development, and would vote for it in a suggestion poll.

There is one consequence of killing nobles- it does negatively impact immigration. Sometimes, however, this is a perk rather than a punishment. I think a dead noble should have some serious side effects like an investigation (with torture) or an attacking force from that noble's family.

Some good threads:

Council of Dwarves
- proposes a noble meeting system to actually make real decisions
My Guildmasters thread - tries to restore some semi-useful nobles that were removed, but with real uses.
Upgraded Nobles by Tamren - a veritable wall of text that is literally covered in menacing spikes of ideas.

Tormy

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Re: More realistic nobles & noble dynamics
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2008, 08:24:26 am »

What kind of a baron shows up to a "fort" that's basically a pit in the ground made of sandstone?

Every aristocratic court has a small mountain of absolutely useless, self centered, demanding, whining, arrogant, pathetic, cowardly, scheming, back-stabbing, foppish, and generally annoying young sons and daughters of nobility that drive the King/Queen absolutely nuts with their incessant ass kissing and pathetic "power plays". So the King/Queen pays back their parents loyal service by "rewarding" your fort with one of these "promising young nobles".


Yeah because mandates are not useless, self centered, demanding and annoying right now?  ;D
Just a little addition to the topic: IMHO nobles should be more important in the fortress life. Different nobles should have some positive special abilities.
Also once diplomacy will be implemented, the nobility should have important roles.
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Granite26

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Re: More realistic nobles & noble dynamics
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2008, 08:34:25 am »

Ya'lls vision of the nobility is way more 17th century France than the early medieval thanes that a more mythically appropriate.

Anyway, long story short, I agree with the theory of consequenses for killing nobles, but not the innate evil of them.  Nor do I think there should be any game breaking actions taken to defend them.

Othob Rithol

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Re: More realistic nobles & noble dynamics
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2008, 08:45:13 am »

Other than the "impossible to fulfill" mandates, I actually like the system. It provides a sense of challenge. By impossible to fulfill, I do mean the mandates for glass in a sandless fort, but more importantly the large amount of "Make Bismuth items", "Make x large gems", "Make Pig Iron items" etc.

so to me the problems are mandates that:

A: Cannot be made under current game rules at that fort
B: involve a VERY high degree of randomness (like large gems)
C: require some raw materials left unprocessed "just in case".
D: or don't actually make anything a noble would want or could use.
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