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[Tamren]

None of the achievements except those involving taunts are impossible to achieve. Most will come eventually, like the 1000 kills one, of which I have 887. I got 8 of the heavy achievements on the first day of play, 4 of them in the first game alone. The other 16 I got within a week.

The taunt ones are a little stupid though. Set taunting enemies on fire. Who taunts in combat? All it does is GET YOU KILLED.

[Draco18s]

So your argument is "Because TF2 implemented it badly, I think it's a bad idea"?

*Epic facepalm*

For the love of god, no.
I was using Team Fortress 2 as an example of bad achievements.
I stated at least twice that he Heavy's achievements are good, all around, there are maybe two I have an issue with of almost 40.

[Dae]

So your argument is "Because TF2 implemented it badly, I think it's a bad idea"?

It's not a bad idea in itself. We just want to be careful about such Achievements being implemented. As in the achievement where you are supposed to kill someone who was just teleported, and end up asking a friend to teleport while you wait for him on the other end. We don't want achievements to become weird goals to reach.

Don't you think if such achievements were in, setting goals requiring strange things that would stand a chance on a million to happen (especially in DF), some players would come across, try to fulfil them all ?

Focusing on these goals, they wouldn't enjoy DF for every detail that's in while they fulfil them. Yet the worst part would be when they fulfilled them all and wouldn't play the game anymore. They wouldn't have gotten the habit of setting goals on their own.
Worse, they could start asking for more achievements, taking Toady coding time !

Of course, it would probably attract more players. The ones less hardcore than most of us, who would need a goal not to feel lost in the giganticness of DF. And there's a (slight) chance DF would hook them for what it really is by the time they fill achievements.
But I don't think it's worth taking the risk. Don't open the Pandora Box. It's evil. And it smells.

PS : Some achievements force you to complete them when there are rewards for this.
Or when a moron starts bragging about them. And you can spend countless hours telling him you don't care, he will keep on looking down on you because he made something you didn't. When the only way to make such a player shut up is completing achievements, it's considered as forced.

[Tormy]

So your argument is "Because TF2 implemented it badly, I think it's a bad idea"?

PS : Some achievements force you to complete them when there are rewards for this.

Or when a moron starts bragging about them. And you can spend countless hours telling him you don't care, he will keep on looking down on you because he made something you didn't. When the only way to make such a player shut up is completing achievements, it's considered as forced.

Well rewards must be minimal, for example some little moral boost for completing a hard "mission".
As for your other sentence, I am speechless.  Why should anyone brag that what did he/she achieved in a GAME?
If you will argue with a retarded person like that, you are crazy. I am ignoring such people [kids?] ASAP.

[Granite26]

You can't tell me that the guy who built the DF shipyard doesn't get bragging rights?

[Joseph Miles]

Thats not forcing, you're doing it because you want the rewards or you want someone to shutup about completing the reward. In the former, it's not required to continue with the game, in the latter you're both being childish.

Besides, people brag about things now. When they make huge tower forts, when you get Boatmurdered type shit, when your adventurer wipes out capitals, the fact of the matter is: PEOPLE CAN AND WILL BRAG. Regardless if the achievements are in game, or player made. So, thats a pretty weak reason to NOT have them in.

[Neonivek]

Thats not forcing, you're doing it because you want the rewards or you want someone to shutup about completing the reward. In the former, it's not required to continue with the game, in the latter you're both being childish.

Besides, people brag about things now. When they make huge tower forts, when you get Boatmurdered type shit, when your adventurer wipes out capitals, the fact of the matter is: PEOPLE CAN AND WILL BRAG. Regardless if the achievements are in game, or player made. So, thats a pretty weak reason to NOT have them in.

Yes but with Achievements however... your telling the players to brag

As in "The proper way to play is to do the achievements, come onto the internet, and brag like no tommorow!"

That is how I deflect the "People will brag either way" arguement... with the "It just makes things worse then it is now" rebuttle

[Joseph Miles]

In the DF community as it is now, people make challenges, people obviously want them. I've seen minimal bragging, and given what I've seen of the personalities of the current DF community, it's pretty much a moot point as we don't have many people who brag as is.

And again, if they bug you, ignore them.

[Draco18s]

So your argument is "Because TF2 implemented it badly, I think it's a bad idea"?

It's not a bad idea in itself. We just want to be careful about such Achievements being implemented. As in the achievement where you are supposed to kill someone who was just teleported, and end up asking a friend to teleport while you wait for him on the other end. We don't want achievements to become weird goals to reach.

Exactly.  The player without the achievements would just burn the teleporter until it broke.  Because that's the smart thing to do.

Mind, there are some weird ones on the Heavy, such as killing someone within 5 seconds of teleporting, and it means you need to come out near the front lines (or get a friend to stand there and let you shoot him), but I did it on Toy Fort, and it took several tries, but that's how the map was set up: all teleporter locations tended to be at the front lines one corner away from being able to shoot things (and as such, teleporters got destroyed a lot--the entire map, if allowed to run indefinitely, is all about who owns the middle point; if you have it you're on defense, if you don't you're on offense and the game rarely moves on to points 4 and 5 with a 50-50 chance of losing the 4th point within 2 minutes of getting it).

[G-Flex]

Call me strange, but I think "Achievements" in DF are a terrible idea.

DF is an extremely player-driven game. The things players achieve are highly emergent and rely on player innovation. We don't need some kind of hand-holding system to congratulate you for building a tall tower or a staircase or something, and really, I don't see what good that would do anyway. I mean, congratulations, you built a fortress with a given total wealth, or a huge magma pit, or a stairway to heaven; DF players, by and large, aren't the sort of people who need some kind of artificial reminder that they did something awesome, and even if they were, the great things people do in DF are the weird things that people have not (or simply have rarely) done before.

To put it more concisely, this isn't X-Box Live and I don't think your average hardcore DF player is going to need the machine patting him on the back for something like this, and I think that giving players a checklist of accomplishments will, if anything, stifle creativity by giving players too much of a stock list of Canonically Awesome Things to do, while completely ignoring actual innovation. It would just encourage people to do a bunch of stuff on a list as opposed to engaging in good old-fashioned dwarven ingenuity (e.g. ice cube fall traps, automated fortress systems). I just think it would promote the wrong kind of mindset about the game.


Also, even if it were a good idea, implementation would be a bitch. The game would need to be constantly checking to see if you're doing things which fit a certain pattern (such as a bunch of staircases N levels high), and I have no clue if that would be feasible whatsoever for a lot of the ideas mentioned, and even if it were, it would probably be somewhat involved and not be worth the time. After all, why would Toady want to spend that much time coding something which doesn't actually do anything except tell you that you've done what you already know you've done?

[Tormy]

Thats not forcing, you're doing it because you want the rewards or you want someone to shutup about completing the reward. In the former, it's not required to continue with the game, in the latter you're both being childish.

Besides, people brag about things now. When they make huge tower forts, when you get Boatmurdered type shit, when your adventurer wipes out capitals, the fact of the matter is: PEOPLE CAN AND WILL BRAG. Regardless if the achievements are in game, or player made. So, thats a pretty weak reason to NOT have them in.

Yes, yes I share this opinion. Look at the DF map archive for example. Some players are obviously uploading their fortresses to brag.  Is this a problem for someone? I dont think so. I have made much better looking fortresses than most of the others who uploaded their work to the site, yet I havent uploaded a single one, just to show my mad fortress design skills. Why? Simply I dont care. So dont tell me, that it would be offensive to YOU if XY would brag that "HEY LOOK AT MY ACHIEVEMENTS! COOL EH?".
Basically this achievement system would be beneficial for newbies + for modders [if we could add custom goals into our mods].

[G-Flex]

Quite frankly, I think it would mostly just be beneficial to people with short attention spans who need a gold banana sticker to feel like they've done a good thing by punching through an aquifer, instead of just noting the fact that they've done it and maybe telling somebody.

I still say that DF is more about exploring the world/map, innovating, and figuring out how to solve problems, rather than having your hand held too much (there could always be some sort of tutorial or better documentation in the future for this anyway) or being given a list of tasks which the game will recognize, while better/bigger things necessarily go unnoticed.

[Tormy]

Quite frankly, I think it would mostly just be beneficial to people with short attention spans who need a gold banana sticker to feel like they've done a good thing by punching through an aquifer, instead of just noting the fact that they've done it and maybe telling somebody.

I still say that DF is more about exploring the world/map, innovating, and figuring out how to solve problems, rather than having your hand held too much (there could always be some sort of tutorial or better documentation in the future for this anyway) or being given a list of tasks which the game will recognize, while better/bigger things necessarily go unnoticed.

The problem is that you take this suggestion way too serious, while it would be only a minor addition to enchance the game for particular players. I know that there are many people who like to complete "little missions" like these in a specific game, this is why I dont see any problems with this idea. Plus Im pretty sure that if this would be added, we could turn it off in the RAWs.

[Neonivek]

In the DF community as it is now, people make challenges, people obviously want them. I've seen minimal bragging, and given what I've seen of the personalities of the current DF community, it's pretty much a moot point as we don't have many people who brag as is.

And again, if they bug you, ignore them.

You cannot confuse the wish for Bragging rights for Achievements...

Especially since once Achievements exists... They are things EVERYONE did.

The current people bragging are people who SET THEIR OWN  GOALS!!!

[G-Flex]

The problem is that you take this suggestion way too serious, while it would be only a minor addition to enchance the game for particular players. I know that there are many people who like to complete "little missions" like these in a specific game, this is why I dont see any problems with this idea. Plus Im pretty sure that if this would be added, we could turn it off in the RAWs.

1) Yes, a minor addition, which would probably be near-pointless and also kind of difficult to implement.
2) You can compete as many "little missions" as you want in DF. Why do you need the game to give you a list of things to do? The game is more fun when you're actually creative. And it's not like people don't suggest interesting things on the forums or IRC channel.