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[CanadianWolverine]

Hi 

First, a bit of background - I am new to Dwarf Fortress, I found it listed in the September 2008 PC Gamer. I like games of all kinds and enjoy following game development. I joined the forums because I really enjoyed reading one of the stories, Migrursut, and I have read a number of threads in which the fine civility of the impressive Dwarf Fortress fan base shines through. Introductions out of the way, hopefully you have an idea of where I am coming from so this will have some context.

I will apologize now if this has already been suggested, I ran a forum search for the word "achievements" and it turned up nothing, so I hope I have not ruffled any feathers that way.

This is the suggestion I would like to have considered and which to a certain degree I understand already exists in the form of history, if I am not mistaken: Achievements.

From what I understand reading the wiki and various threads, DF players basicly make their own in game goals, some of the results of these plans which show up in the history of their world and are engraved into objects and walls. Now, I hope it doesn't come off as crass, but this reminded me of Team Fortress 2 Achievements, so hopefully this will be taken as a point of reference. I am not suggesting unlockable items, but rather a set of common and not so common goals, that the game could recognize your silly dwarves have stumbled upon intentionally or unintentionally.

To refine the suggestion, I would love it if these Historical Achievements where categorized into sections that represent the approximate level a player is at in discovering the nuances of Dwarf Fortress: Beginner, Novice, Advanced, Legendary ... and so forth. Probably plainly you can recognize my own selfish desires in this now, as a new player, to a certain degree I wish to have my hand held by the game a little bit, give me goals in game straight from the wiki and the fun threads I read for later on when my various forts don't die within the first year on a regular basis.

Possible Historical Achievements that I can think of within my limited experience (so I am sure there are better ones that others more versed in DF could articulate) are as follows:

Beginner:
- Strike The Earth! - build a up/down stair case down one level
- Home Sweet Home - dig out room, place a bed, designate bedroom
- Hydroponics - dig out a room, plant seeds, grow a food plant
- Hi Ho, Hi Ho, Its Off To Work We Go! - mine something
- This Is Good Grub! - build a dining room

Advanced:
- The Art of Dwarf War - kill a named sieger

Legendary:
- Boatmurdered?!? - flood the outside world with lava without destroying your dwarf fort

Well, hopefully you get the idea now. This idea was sparked by my own sense of feeling lost upon trying my first fort and reading some fun threads in these forums as to just how much fun can be had in this game. 

[Tormy]

Basically the idea is not bad.
Just a question: what would happen after completing a "mission"? I say mission since it looks like that at least.
Lets say you complete "The Art of Dwarf War - kill a named sieger", I suppose you would like to see some bonus "effect" in your fortress? Like dwarves should have some happy thoughts about it for example?..or you would just like to see a wall of text in game about the completed goals?

[CanadianWolverine]

Hmm, honestly had not conceptualized it as anything that gives a gameplay reward per se, just something in game that recognizes your accomplishments.

So yeah, I guess it would be like a wall of text in history thing, just a way of saying something like "Hey, I completed 98/100 of the Beginner Achievements and 33/66 of the Novice and ..." I know, its kinda silly, but I think it would be a bit of direction for the beginner and a bit of acknowledgment of those players we already praise in the forums. Its just a bit of flare, some games use it to effect gameplay by unlockables but it doesn't need to be more than a sense of accomplishment and pride in game, IMHO.

Hmm, like...

Advanced:
- Its Good To Be The King - have the king come live at your fortress

It doesn't say how you accomplish that, just that it is a goal, doesn't have to met to play and it only cheers you, the player, when you get it. I find it a fun thing in stuff like TF2 on Steam, so I thought it might help here. In a way, folks already do it if some of the threads I read are anything to go by

[Tormy]

Hehe, I see. 
Sounds good to be honest. Perhaps there should be some "rewards" for completing the most complex goals anyway. [..but not some "physical" reward, but like Ive mentioned dwarves should have some happy thoughts after it, so it would be a moral boost basically.]

[R1ck]

Sounds pretty awesome. But would there be any way to realize some of the tougher achievements existed without actually doing
them or hearing about them?

[Joseph Miles]

I'd love to have some sort of system like this implemented, the real questions are:

Would the rewards be per fortress, per world, or per installment of DF? I'd imagine it should be per world so you can complete ones that contradict themselves.

What would the rewards, if any, be? An increase in happiness for some, sure. Maybe an increase in likelihood of a mood, gifts from nearby friendly civilizations, increase in fertility, or the like?

What would the challenges be? Sure, the king, the beginning rooms, digging a bit, but anything out of the ordinary? A 15 z-level tower?  A magmafall protecting the entrance to your fort?

[Neonivek]

Ohh my goodness... I hate you all!

Why does everything need Achievements? Yes sure it was a tad fun at first until you learned that not only is the bulk of the achievements superfluous, uttarly stupid, pointless, gridingly timewasting... GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Alright... Since I obviously can't fight the Achievement system the demons established in the 360 in order to annoy me and drain the braincells of everyone it touches so that they can create a machine that will destroy the world... I can at LEAST deflect the stupidity the system creates

First there should be no set achievements for you to earn. Instead when looking at your fortress or information about the area there should be sets of goals the game has programmed. If your fortress is the first one build by a Goblin Fortress and got 80 members, It should mention it in the history and announce it in the game. If your fortress is build on a deserted Island perhaps it should recognise that.

The game already has a few in the sense that it records who climbed a mountain. Except that doesn't really count because it doesn't recognise you the player as doing so but rather the character. (which is fine with me... You the player don't exist... so why would it be there?)

If you disagree then ATLEAST exclude superfluous achievements or ones that are just "Who has the least life".

The List of Achievements that should never be:
-Building and designating: NEVER should actions you would naturally take in the game be there
-Playing the game right: NO!!!
-Outrageous goals: No Fortress made entirely out of gold... No 100 year fortress
-Naturally Occuring: No goals that you would get by playing the game normally
-Lets play Stupid!: No goals that require you to play badly and somehow succeed.

Does anyone other then me dislike how popular Achievements have become to the point where people beg and pine for Achievements in all videogames and consoles?

[Neonivek]

I'd love to have some sort of system like this implemented, the real questions are:

Would the rewards be per fortress, per world, or per installment of DF? I'd imagine it should be per world so you can complete ones that contradict themselves.

What would the rewards, if any, be? An increase in happiness for some, sure. Maybe an increase in likelihood of a mood, gifts from nearby friendly civilizations, increase in fertility, or the like?

What would the challenges be? Sure, the king, the beginning rooms, digging a bit, but anything out of the ordinary? A 15 z-level tower?  A magmafall protecting the entrance to your fort?

It isn't an "Achievement" unless it applies to you the player... Not fortresses or your character.

[CanadianWolverine]

I'd love to have some sort of system like this implemented, the real questions are:

Would the rewards be per fortress, per world, or per installment of DF? I'd imagine it should be per world so you can complete ones that contradict themselves.

What would the rewards, if any, be? An increase in happiness for some, sure. Maybe an increase in likelihood of a mood, gifts from nearby friendly civilizations, increase in fertility, or the like?

What would the challenges be? Sure, the king, the beginning rooms, digging a bit, but anything out of the ordinary? A 15 z-level tower?  A magmafall protecting the entrance to your fort?

Where did this idea of rewards come from? *glares at Tormy then chuckles* I would think the reward would just be completing them.

Those. Sorry, maybe I should have posed the question to be clear:
Any suggestions for what your favourite Historical Achievements would be?

You know those list of challenge things in the wiki? Each of those could be a achievement. Hmm, let me take your post here and throw some fun titles on it...

Legendary:
- Strike The Stars! - A 15 z-level tower? 
- Warm Welcome Mat - A magmafall protecting the entrance to your fort?

See, I am not too intimately familiar with the communities various mythos and accomplishments, so any kind of thing that you have ever seen in Dwarf Fortress and went "Cool", "Sweet", *ROFL* ... etc. that could be a Historical Achievement.

View it like the game recognizing and applauding you on that thing I read in the wiki - Losing is fun!

Like after a few of the basics that originally keep your dwarves from dying of the mundane, there are all kinds of achievements one could get for all the various ways one could watch the downfall of a fortress. Could you imagine all the achievements possible for water?

[korora]

Every time you double-post, a noble that likes adamantine immigrates to your fortress.

Also, if you read earlier in the thread you'll see there is a point to achievements, namely emphasizing the right way to play for new players, or providing challenges for experienced players.

[Jude]

This seems like a cool extension of the engravings of major events in your own fort history...once the army arc is in, I think wiping out another civ should be worth some recognition; or killing megabeasts...or defeating HFS...

[Neonivek]

Every time you double-post, a noble that likes adamantine immigrates to your fortress.

Also, if you read earlier in the thread you'll see there is a point to achievements, namely emphasizing the right way to play for new players, or providing challenges for experienced players.

There are ways to do so outside the Achievement system which function better.

Achievements don't replace learning how to play or even aid general understanding of the game as the game tells you... so they do NOT show new players how to play. So that point is moot as it is.

Achievements are a bland way to provide challenges for experienced players and in fact are used as a replacement for better gameplay. (Why provide harder enemies? Just make the player fight them with a stick).

I don't mind them, afterall I own a 360, however I feel that their benefits are exagerated and their view as a "Need" or even as anywhere close to important is rather false. Add in that the idea that they are now a requirement for all videogames to have now is becoming ever more popular it is annoying me especially since this spawns more "Achievement based gameplay" rather then "Gameplay based gameplay"

[CanadianWolverine]

Does anyone other then me dislike how popular Achievements have become to the point where people beg and pine for Achievements in all videogames and consoles?

Thanks for the reply Neonivek.

This was an important post, lets just get the "Cool to hate popular" thing out there and put away. I really hope I do not give the impression of begging or pining for this idea to be implemented. I do not own a 360.

I need to disagree with these points especially:

The List of Achievements that should never be:
-Building and designating: NEVER should actions you would naturally take in the game be there

A list of goals helps the new players explore those actions, its not unheard of for players to not even realize game play options exist unless it is pointed out to them, if the threads I have read in the forums are anything to go by.

-Playing the game right: NO!!!

Here I agree with you, if I understand the intention of the fun of Dwarf Fortress, there is no right way to play it, there are only escalating levels of disaster. Besides, the nature of achievements doesn't tell you how to get them, only that the game will applaud you if you do.

-Outrageous goals: No Fortress made entirely out of gold... No 100 year fortress

Er, I could have sworn I see people making these goals for themselves anyways in the wiki and various threads, then showing them off with screenshots and videos. I really don't understand how this is a bad thing.

-Naturally Occuring: No goals that you would get by playing the game normally

Er, it was my impression that the (un)naturally occuring stuff was pretty much the bulk of the games fun content, where one first meets elephants, carp, fire imps, demons, and any number of other crazy calamities. Besides, it seems like depending on where one embarks their dwarves to or even if a world has generated certain resources, it is more than likely that all achievements would not even be possible to accomplish at all.

-Lets play Stupid!: No goals that require you to play badly and somehow succeed.

Um, again, why are there whole sections of the wiki dedicated to playing the start and length of the game in different restricted ways, even described as *Bonus Points!* for playing in even more restricted ways ... isn't this also contradicting your earlier point of No Correct Way To Play?

I'm confused now, I thought I was groking the fun nature of Dwarf Fortress, that it is kinda like the shits and giggles we would have when we saw a Sim catch on fire or go crazy when we walled them in and the Grim Reaper pays them a visit. Since I am new to all this, did I some how miss something fundamental? IMHO, while the animations for me to watch the stuff unfold may not be there like in Sims, Dwarf Fortress seems to come across as way more enticing and deep than Sims for all the stuff it lets us face without getting all PG-13 about it.

[Neonivek]

Well...

When you kill your Sim... That is alright

When there is an achievement for killing your Sims... There is something wrong.

I have no problem with people setting their own goals... Heck that is why I wanted the Achievements for Dwarf Fortress to be a bit more flexable and not set. However when the game "makes" them do so... it kinda takes away from the game... at least in my view

[Proteus]

In a way we already have a small archievement system in the game.

Namely the city turning from a small village to a metropolis or the arrival of the baron/ess which rises in rank as your fortress gets more powerful.

The engravements (which were mentiond) can also count as an archievement system, but maybe this would be something that could be expanded and, for example, include the things that you list in your thread as archievements, like the building of a high tower or other building, or more heroic battles (for example a lone crossbowman going out and fighting against a large group of enemies, killing some of them and thus breaking a siege).

Maybe we could also have the darf liaison and the human diplomat mentioning 1-2 notable events that happend during the time between their visists (like: We heard about the large goblin siege you withstood in the autumn last year. We are glad that you were successful in defeating the enemies and killing Atal Sheribas, the human hammerlord)